Reader comments from SunWorld October 1997 reader survey

"Microsoft is wrong; Sun is right"

December  1997
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Sun says that Microsoft has deliberately breached its contractual obligation by not supporting the complete JDK 1.1 in the shipping version of Internet Explorer. Microsoft says that it is in compliance with the contract and says that Sun is trying to force it to ship a whole new operating system on top of Windows. Well, you can't see the contract in dispute, but you can let Sun and Microsoft know what you think of this bickering.

Number of respondents: 1325
Newer ones are at the end.

Last modified at 11:16 on 25 November 1997.

Date: Tue Oct 14 22:05:52 PDT 1997

I think Sun may have some valid complaints, however in light of their conduct the past few months, I am inclined to think they are taking a low road in this approach to Microsoft. Microsoft needs to be brought in line, but Sun needs to deal with all the Java licensees in the SAME EXACT manner. If they are going to scrutinize Microsoft, they need to use the exact same testing on Netscape, Symantec, Linux, etc. etc. In my opinion this kind of conduct lowers Sun and lowers Java to a level on par with Microsoft. It's not JUST whether you win or lose but how you play the game, and right now it stinks.

Date: Tue Oct 14 22:50:04 PDT 1997

The industry as a whole needs to have Java as it could be, i.e. truly write once, run anywhere. It is rather amusing that Perl actually comes quite close to that without any "official" standards board or corporate owner. Maybe the best course of action would be to donate Java to the general public and watch how well others (other than Microsoft) port a true Java VM to everything from windows 3.1 to MVS/ESA. As a 25 year veteran of data processing that is only 45, I am quite tired of having to live with second-best languages, toola and OSs just because a particular company has better marketing or lower ethics.

Date: Tue Oct 14 23:04:18 PDT 1997

Sun could do a better job of managing the Java standard, keeping different companies' VMs synchronized, and also keeping Microsoft from sidetracking the debate with irrelevant issues (like how Netscape's VM compares). I will happily replace 2/3 of our company's PCs with NCs running Java-based apps when the packaged Java software market is a little more mature (all we need is word processing and contact management software that can print and fax!).

Date: Tue Oct 14 23:21:11 PDT 1997

Number one, I don't care who wins, I just want a standard set so the ideology behind "write once, run anywhere" will work. Number two, I don't think Microsoft is capable of producing a quality product - nor capable of addressing my needs as a small company. They have not supported "backwards compatibility" in the past as migrating to newer versions of IDE's has always been a difficult task when using their products. Number three, Sun has done a fantastic job up to this point in developing the Java standard so I see no reason to take it out of their hands. Number four, I don't trust Independent Standards Boards as they are incredibly slow and can be lobbied by large companies - which we've seen happen with DHTML. I can't wait for these groups of people to do their jobs and I hate politics when it comes to decisions about what is correct technically. So, to sum it up, I think Microsoft is wrong, their intentions are bad, and I truly believe that Sun should completely revoke their license. It would deal MS a serious blow and possibly allow some of these smaller companies a chance to catch up a little - maybe even teach Microsoft a big lesson that has long been needed, ie. You can't have it your way all the time with an attitude that the consumer's opinion just doesn't matter (where developers are the consumer).

Date: Tue Oct 14 23:53:40 PDT 1997

Java would not be relavent without Micrsoft. Java's major purpose and quite by accident is to destroy the Evil Empire. Microsoft (the unwilling Evil Empire) will embrace Java and if they keep playing with it they will make all Java developers work harder to make better progress with respest to the JDK and use-ability. The time for slow standards are gone. Slug it out and make Java better. But quit gripping about Microsoft and make Java Faster , Stronger. Good luck Sun, but beware for if Microsoft loses and decides to make a universal standard maybe Expresso, there are a lot more copies of Windows than there are Solaris. The only way to win is this , make Java better, faster..etc. Personal observation, why is the HotJava Browser not in the Public Domain ... write once run on Solaris Sparc and Win95/WinNT... Hey Sun ... DUH....

Date: Wed Oct 15 01:21:46 PDT 1997

Would have to see the text of the disputed contract. Since MS is unwilling to discuss concrete details, MS appears to be avoiding its contractual obligations. The problem is to what extent the court will understand the technical issues involved. If that hurdle can be passed, I think any fair judge would throw the book at MS for bad faith, malice aforethought and all damages for consistent and deliberate breach of contract. The problem that MS cannot make go away, is their intent. Their interest in the Windows OS does not give them any legitimate right to breach the contract, which they seem to feel.

Date: Wed Oct 15 01:48:47 PDT 1997

I'm very optimistic in that I see a great potential in Java. It is a beautiful language that puts C++ to shame! I'm pessimistic because when Bill tries to shuck fit up, he usually has a knack for doing so. I hope that all the people that are on the fence don't decide to let go of Java because Microsoft is afraid of it. Microsoft is afraid of it because its operating system sucks, and it knows that if Java apps are widely available, Chairman Bill will be Chairless Bill. Sad but true. Good luck... Microsoft needs a reality check, and you guys just might be able to give it to them!

Date: Wed Oct 15 02:33:24 PDT 1997

in a world without fences, who needs Gates?

Date: Wed Oct 15 02:59:53 PDT 1997

M$ attempt to make Java only just another interesting Language killing its network centric / plattform independent approach really sucks ....

Date: Wed Oct 15 03:22:21 PDT 1997

Java is our strategy. Java is a de-facto standard. We believe in Sun's view of Java. We don't need Microsoft to re-invent technology where technology exists. We don't need Microsoft new terminologies and acronyms to reference standards we had for years. We must support users, we must suggest users, we cannot let them decide without know-how. We need a pure JDK1.1 on every platform to do this. We will have it, no matter what Microsoft will do. Thank Sun.

Date: Wed Oct 15 03:53:30 PDT 1997

Sun should include all the technologies need inorder to make 100% pure java programs part of the PAS JAVA standard. Until Sun does this the promise of write once run any where will not be realised and Microsoft will have the upper hand from a marketing standard point. Sun should make the following trade marks availible to complaint products as part of the PAS JAVA standard: 100% Pure Java 1.1 VM Complaint 100% Pure Java 1.2 VM Complaint

Date: Wed Oct 15 04:20:37 PDT 1997

Regarding questions 7 and 8, I became more pessimistic when I actually started writing some Java and found that I had compatibility problems due to bad implementations of the JVM and classes. Apparently people are unable to port them properly. What Microsoft has done is add incompatibilities on purpose.

Date: Wed Oct 15 05:07:27 PDT 1997

Put the screws to them!

Date: Wed Oct 15 05:22:04 PDT 1997

No Comments

Date: Wed Oct 15 05:25:44 PDT 1997

Much like the recent court case between CyberPromotions and Aegis, the lawsuit between Sun and Microsoft touches on a number of vital issues but is fundamentally a simple case of breach of contract. While Sun may eventually prevail on these grounds, Microsoft has mastered the use of the "Perception is Reality" metaphor, and will inevitably create the perception that their "brew" of Java is superior for the Windows platform. This will attract legions of novice developers (who know no other operating system than Windows) using Microsoft's "superior" java implementation to create java-based applications that are "write once run only on MS Windows."

Date: Wed Oct 15 05:43:38 PDT 1997

I am generally in agreement with the recent articles in JavaWorld and NCWorld. Microsoft appears to be trying to 'break' Java by making it more difficult for programmers to write their Java programs once. I do feel that, as I believe one of the NCWorld articles opined, if other licensees such as Netscape are similarly out of compliance, they must be held to the same standards. The major question, though, is whether Microsoft has breached its contract. If it has, it should be forced into compliance or made to stop using the Java brand in its products and advertisements. For the future of Java, if the later comes to pass, I would think that Microsoft should have to stop using the Java brand in an affirmative manner--they should have to pay for advertisements making it clear that they do not support Java and clearly label all affected products as no longer supporting Java.

Date: Wed Oct 15 05:59:35 PDT 1997

Whatever the lawsuit may cost Javasoft, Java and its promise of "Write once run everywhere" - everything that keeps anyone from destroying this promise is worth a lawsuit. I think the "Write once Run everywhere" promise is a way of "The American Dream" for Developers and should stay to be. Probably a second strategy of SUN/Javasoft should be to program/distribute a "free" virtual machine for the Windows Plattforms their own and license Java for Windows only bundled with this in the future. This would effectively cost M$ more than every lawsuit ever will. I would not hesitate a second to replace the M$ Files by such delivered from SUN. (Remember Netware Client by Novell and Netware Client by M$) The Bill Gates Company is now - faster than anyone including themselves thought they would at the point, where IBM was when M$ made WinNT out of OS/2: "they will go down but THEY still don't know that they will". Nobody in the IT-Comunity wants the IT Power of the world in the hands of only one person or only one company (this btw applies to Javasoft too), so Java today is where the steam found its safety-valve again and so it will in the future as soon as anyone is abusing the power he gets from the IT comunity.

Date: Wed Oct 15 06:00:29 PDT 1997

Microsoft never invents anything, they coop other company's ideas then improve them until the put the original company out of business or at least make them insignificant. They plan the same for JAVA. We consumers have the power to keep that fom happening. For starters, we can hold off using Microsoft's browser until it conforms to pure JAVA. Personally, I find Explorer very unstable and it crashes every time I use it. Also, even when it works without crashing it's no better than Netscape's browser. Someday, explorer will be a good product. That's Microsoft's history.

Date: Wed Oct 15 06:05:59 PDT 1997

Does anyone expect less from Microsoft?

Date: Wed Oct 15 06:15:02 PDT 1997

Hope you'll win this one

Date: Wed Oct 15 06:16:57 PDT 1997

Too bad

Date: Wed Oct 15 06:17:07 PDT 1997

Too bad

Date: Wed Oct 15 06:21:20 PDT 1997

The market place requires a programming language that truly is written once, run anywhere, we've been screaming about it since IBM brought out the 360 systems. COBOL was the first hope but companies trying to protect their market share started to have their own "improvements" to the language and the customer was left with nothing. IT budgets are too large, development/testing time too long and senior management is tired of hearing how their applications can't be moved to bigger, better and cheaper hardware platforms. Sun and Microsoft should be the leaders in this crusade and not enemies. It would be fantastic is two major computing powers actually worked together to provide what the community requires rather than try to dominate the marketplace. It didn't work for IBM and it won't work for Microsoft or Sun. The consumer will turn somewhere else to find what they want and there will be someone who will offer alternatives. How do you think UNIX and Windows become so popular not so long ago. IBM did not listen to the customer and Sun and Microsoft have not yet learned that history does repeat itself. I do give Sun credit since they have been the drivers for Java and had the guts to not let Microsoft try and make Java just a programming language. However, now the courts will have the case for 5 years and by then the entire discuss will be mute because someone did come up a better approach, or so the consumer will think, and everyone will be on that bandwagon.

Date: Wed Oct 15 06:31:31 PDT 1997

Sun Microsystems must concentrate more on International Standardization than on the Microsoft Lawsuit. If ISO accepts Sun as a PAS submitter, Microsoft's entire position becomes irrelevant. Sun needs to focus on clearly making everyone understand 2 things: 1) Sun being a for-profit company is not an issue (as rightly stated by JTC) in the PAS application. 2) Sun complies with each and every requirement of a PAS submitter in an exemplary fashion. This should be the current top priority for Sun. On par with this - is delivering JDK 1.2 on time and with exceptional quality. This will also silence the critics.

Date: Wed Oct 15 06:40:40 PDT 1997

MS follow an ideological strategy to preserve his marketplace position because he is afraid by SUN Java strategy.... MS introduce some volontary uncompatible specifications to break the powerful paradigm "Write once, run anywhere"... Bill is a f... guy...! He as build MS to make a difference with IBM ago, but yet he try to protect his force every people to use his own Internet Bill&Business Machine...! Bill need to stop working into IT...

Date: Wed Oct 15 06:43:37 PDT 1997

Microsoft's Java VM should be the reference implementation for Windows if it conforms to the letter and the spirit of their Java licence, otherwise, their licence should be revoked and someone else given the task of providing the reference implementation for Windows.

Date: Wed Oct 15 06:53:44 PDT 1997

Java is like TCP/IP. If a router goes down, other routers route around it. If Microsoft doesn't want to play by the rules, then people can use tools and VMs made by other companies. I don't consider Java proprietary. ActiveX is. With Java, you never again have to write conditional compilation code or plan ahead for users wanting to run your programs on other operating systems. This saves time in testing as well as time and money in support. If Sun and the Java Lobby keep fighting, we could make this a pivotable time for Microsoft. I like Microsoft and everything they do, but I'm against them ruining Java for everyone. Programmers and users alike have wanted write-once-run-anywhere products for a long time. Java promises and delivers. We should all focus our efforts on using Java and establish negative sanctions against anyone who tries to get in our way.

Date: Wed Oct 15 07:01:00 PDT 1997

Rally the troops around a 'Just Say No' or a 'Where to you want Microsoft to go today' campaign. Enough of the software crack dealer.

Date: Wed Oct 15 07:53:26 PDT 1997

Give me browsers that understand at least jdk 1.1... Nail a few things down... I hate deprecated this.. deprecated that... Lets get tons of docs on the components like JDBC etc out there so us Java part-timers have all the info we need to adopt this worthy language.

Date: Wed Oct 15 07:57:53 PDT 1997

I was a Sun/Unix developer for many years (worked at Sun for 6+ years), now I'm a Windows developer. *Please* don't justify the lawsuit by stating that Sun is trying to protect software developers from being duped by Microsoft's proprietary extensions. How naive, unsophisticated, stupid, etc. do you think we are?? If I choose to use one of the Microsoft API's, I do it knowing full well that it's not portable, but if I'm developing for Windows only anyway, why should I care? I just want the best VM and developer productivity on that platform.

Date: Wed Oct 15 08:07:30 PDT 1997

I would like to see MS taken down a peg or two. My understanding of the issues from the press is that they should be. Go Scott! These are my opinions and may not reflect the position of my employer.

Date: Wed Oct 15 08:09:20 PDT 1997

Java holds the promise of write once - run anywhere and is far more important than the survival of Microsoft. Developers should boycot Microsoft until MS helps deliver on the write once - run anywhere concept. Microsoft needs to learn how to compete and not just dictate. IT customers should realize that in the long run competetion is best for them and should also boycott Microsoft.

Date: Wed Oct 15 08:15:25 PDT 1997

Microsoft has taken something that is supposed to be the same everywhere and run the same everywhere and now made it machine dependent, which totally disregards the purpose of java. By the time Microsoft is done screwing Java up and the court battle is over, no one is going to want to use java.

Date: Wed Oct 15 08:29:08 PDT 1997

What about the so-called restraning order ? Lay one on BG @ MS to recall IE4 and any other Java included software that does not meet the License agreement. If I were in violation, such as pirating software (MS or others) and they found out, what would you think they would do to me? I guess one would have to shoot one in the foot in order to get immediate attention, then find out who really did it.

Date: Wed Oct 15 08:59:38 PDT 1997

It is a pity that both companies cannot be forced to reach some agreement. Both have pitiful track records on this issue. A CEO should never allow, as yours has, himself systematically to give the appearance of being motivated by simply personal attitudes.

Date: Wed Oct 15 09:20:03 PDT 1997

It seems that Microsft has a sad disire to change every good standard to the "Microsoft-way", which will do everything well in Microsoft-land and won't make the Internet work!!.. why? because Internet is a union of many different systems, OS and Hardware...not just Microsft compatible (which is only 1 hardware platform)...How does Microsoft expect people to keep wanting Internet in their homes if it's all Microsoft-licenced...Microsoft Java, etc.?? People like the Internet being the diversity united! and doing Java is creating standards in programming for all platforms! MAC, Intel, SUN, HP, IBM.. greets..

Date: Wed Oct 15 09:35:49 PDT 1997

It is too bad that Micro$oft is more concerned with people using their substandard products than enhancing the future of computing.

Date: Wed Oct 15 09:41:19 PDT 1997

Sun and Microsoft need to resolve this quickly and amicably. Java is no threat to Windows at all. 98% of our customers will use Windows anyway. Java simply offers object orientation and Internet enabled development. The cross platform possiblities are only a fringe benefit that will help us to offer solutions to the handful of Macintosh users out there.

Date: Wed Oct 15 10:15:54 PDT 1997

as a non technical lay person who has been stuck with various propritory products, i will no longer buy any that i know are propritory. i will wait until there is a reconized standard first, even if it means doing without a new technology for awhile.

Date: Wed Oct 15 10:25:20 PDT 1997

If Java was handed over to an international standards organization, would they have the ability to keep somebody like MS/Bill Gates in line with the standards set by the organization??? My fear is that with the lawsuit will only cause MS to not comply with to Java standards but compete against it. In essence making it impossible to use Java on an MS OS, unless it is MS's flavor of Java. Lets face it, MS has a much larger installation base than Solaris does.

Date: Wed Oct 15 11:13:38 PDT 1997

As of today, do you think Java will fulfill its promise of delivering applications that can be "written once and run everywhere?" If java is kept 'pure', I think it is the best thing to hit the computer world. -gv- 'Sun Java doesn't jerk you around, it lets you develop safe and transportable apps.' 'Microsoft and the internet are a dangerous thing, especially with "de-"active-x opening up systems to direct hacking. Sun, keep up the good work on the 'pure' Java front. thanks, Opinions are my own not the company.

Date: Wed Oct 15 11:34:10 PDT 1997

Anyone who signs an agreement with a third-generation lawyer running the largest software company in the world AND thinks they will get a fair deal is PLAIN STUPID! Bill Gate's and Microsoft got where they are because they are the greastest group of technology Hot Rodders. {For you computer geeks who ride public trasportation: Hot Rod is a pre-world War II term for a non-engineering men who can take a basket of parts and create a working vehicle - that often performs better than the college eductated engineers did or do.:->) Seriously, Microsoft got to the top of heap by eating the competion and being willing to do the same with its own products. They are the best at what they do; and Scott is waisting his capital trying to best Microsoft at the retail language game. Gates was selling someone else's compiler - and making bucket's of money - long before Scott got his first compiler to work in college. The Sun vs Microsoft lawsuit will be about the same as when Apple sued Microsoft. Lots of BS conversation from journalistic types who never took a Business Law class. Save your digital ink for something useful like: does Java work today? or when will Jave have as many useful tools as Pascal or Basic have today? Those are issues that a developer cares about. I can hire an Assembler programmer and use PC-DOS & a Intel style 386 processor that cost less than $20 and get a productive application out the door to a corporate customer in less than 4 months. I have yet to see a Java reliable application that enhances a customers productivity. Making fake steam appear above a two-dimensional coffee cup on the internet is eye-catching but childish at best. Scott; Have a nice day and go take the bugs out of the fricking Sun keyboards. Or make those 1989 ASCII green screen dumb-terminals that are still using Sun s

Date: Wed Oct 15 11:53:14 PDT 1997

Kudos to Sun for standing up to Microsoft. For ten years now Microsoft has ruled the way consuers and businesses compute. It is time someone (Sun, Netscape) stands up and squashes this monopoly.

Date: Wed Oct 15 11:54:03 PDT 1997

Turning over Java to an international standards organisation will force Microsoft to comply with JDK in its existing and coming versions and will give SUN an tremendous moral upper-hand, and most important will mean a final breakthrough for Java as a open standard platform.

Date: Wed Oct 15 11:55:04 PDT 1997

Java, Sanka, Maxwell House, it don't matter what we call it or what emerges, we just need a common language to tackle the insurmountable list of IT projects on the slate.

Date: Wed Oct 15 12:43:51 PDT 1997

I think SUN did the right thing by taking Microsoft to court. If SUN was the designer of JAVA, they should have the full right and control of standards. I am just waiting for the day for SUN to release the JAVA based OS.

Date: Wed Oct 15 12:51:40 PDT 1997

Nuke MS!

Date: Wed Oct 15 13:19:02 PDT 1997

Micro$oft and Bill Gate$ are evil. It doesn't get any simpler.

Date: Wed Oct 15 13:54:05 PDT 1997

Microsoft took something great and has tried to corrupt it. They say Write once Run anywhere is a dream. How come I am using programs on Linux, OS/2 Warp, Solaris, and yes, Windows (but with Sun's JDK) and the performance is more than acceptable on all platforms. They have become liars which has deeply troubled me since my firm has had a sizable investment in their products. Our priorities have definitely changed and hopefully Sun can be a big partner in this. Microsoft has been purporting that NT is an equal to UNIX with much scalibility. Also they have predicted the death of UNIX. They must have a complete crew of idiots. The sad part of it is the press and the public at large will believe it.

Date: Wed Oct 15 14:16:40 PDT 1997

Bill Gates has more money in his pocket than your company profits in a year, and lawyers suck right? Why bark up the Microsoft tree? Just Piss On It dilligently and save your money to make more Java products for the pure standard. I truly believe no matter how hard you work, Sun is not going to substantially affect the direction of Java. This is because as soon as you offer a free and open standard you have commoditized it, and from then on the user rules. You just provide what you think they need, instead of trying to trap them proprietarily. I also believe that Microsoft, just like IBM did last decade, is shooting themselves in the foot being stuborn, and will pay form it in user backlash. But MS will makes tons on NT and be there long into the future unless NCs take over. Why don't you guys take a page from Billygoat and place a pretty face on a version of Unix that peoople other than three initialed geeks can install and maintain. That is what Bill Gates did to suck half the Unix market out from under you. Make things easy to use. You guys missed that one just as badly as Bill Gates missed the Internet. It wouldn't have mattered to a soul in the beginning if it turned out to be X Windows. But Bill put out a framework everybody could work with on cheap hardware. Now you have to transform Java into the hardware and OS on the NC to usurp the client back from Microsoft

Date: Wed Oct 15 14:28:37 PDT 1997

i think that some of microsoft's changes might be good ideas, however, they should have been shared with sun and/or the rest of the licensees to see if there is a general consensus that they are good additions to the core java. then, and only then, should they be implemented. as a developer who uses java exclusively for in-house applications, i think that this suit will be benficial in getting things out in the open and promote standardization. of course, this is all contingent upon refraining from prolonged proprietary bickering...

Date: Wed Oct 15 14:32:22 PDT 1997

While Microsoft is concerned that Java will make Windows just another OS, it is unclear whether or not all this wrangling will change anything. Bill Gates is neither poor nor stupid, and is clearly threatened by the potential Java has. His mastery of confusing issues in the marketplace would make an IBM marketeer of the 1980's proud. He has the intelligence and the money to make Sun miserable. I personally hope Sun can stand against the Microsoft on this (unlike IBM, who appear to have caved in completely) but the track record on this is not promising. I hope this not because I have any great loathing for Microsoft, but because I always want to have choices in my vendor solutions. Also, if it is true (as it has been alleged in the media and by Microsoft) that Netscape is less Java complient than Microsoft, I'd like to know when either 1) Netscape is getting sued or 2) Netscape is going to come into complience.

Date: Wed Oct 15 14:40:46 PDT 1997

Once again, the amazing "Billego" has overidden common sense. By fully implementing Java into MS products, Bill has an opportunity to become the platform of choice for Java development and deployment, while at the same time, making MS applications available on many other platforms. (Read licensing fees). Instead, he takes the low-road of either making Java Wintel-centric, or to destroy it. Sort of 'If I can't have it all, no one can have it'. Grow up Bill!

Date: Wed Oct 15 15:18:02 PDT 1997

Even though I like MS Development tools (I've worked extensively with Visual Basic for some time now) I love the cleanness of Java and it's ground-up OO foundations. I don't think MS should be allowed to balkanize Java. If they've agreed to license Java, they should stick to the agreement. I'm not sure of the exact details of the agreement, but maybe Sun needs to be more clear with it's licensees what they can, can't and must do as licensee of Java. It's obvious that they have no intentions of supporting the ever-expanding Java platform, only the language, but they have some claim to being early supporters of JDK 1.1 and Beans, even though they haven't and don't plan to implement other parts of the Java environment.

Date: Wed Oct 15 15:23:40 PDT 1997

Microsoft will drag it out until Java is no longer a threat to them, and historically they do not tolerate any threat to their O/S's until the threat is dead. The only way out for Sun is to turn it over to a standards body and let it stand on it's own merits.

Date: Wed Oct 15 16:45:13 PDT 1997

The future of internet and java is no longer in you're hands. Sun just try to hard

Date: Wed Oct 15 16:55:51 PDT 1997

Give Microsoft what they deserve!!!

Date: Wed Oct 15 17:00:44 PDT 1997

It is time to stop Microsoft to continue fooling everybody.

Date: Wed Oct 15 17:11:29 PDT 1997

Strongly Support Sun's position on Java, Is Micro$oft so afraid of competition that they have to resort to dirty tricks and underhanded tactics to try to dominate the industry? Doesn't Bill Gates have enough money? We don't need more Bloat-ware, only operating systems and applications that work.

Date: Wed Oct 15 17:27:48 PDT 1997

To hell with Microsoft

Date: Wed Oct 15 17:33:55 PDT 1997

Bill Gates was my hero. Now, Microsoft is trying to splinter Java and their refusal to support 1.1 along with their messing with "sacred" parts of the class libraries is inexcusable. Microsoft has success and talent. Now let them show some leadership.

Date: Wed Oct 15 17:45:46 PDT 1997

More works needs to be done to increase speed (JIT compilers etc.) and the AWT just isn't suffcient to match the power of many OS GUIs

Date: Wed Oct 15 17:52:22 PDT 1997

I fear that Java is following the path of Unix. One is the best OS in the world and the other just may be the best language. Unfortunately, I see the Java world splintering just like the Unix world. I am responsible for developing applications under both Unix and Windows NT. I look forward to making Java my language of choice for future development projects, but I expect to be developing separate applications for Unix and NT - just as I do now with C/C++.

Date: Wed Oct 15 17:59:25 PDT 1997

In the past when MS forced us to swallow an alternate standard I could see where it could possibly be for the good of all. However, this time MS is NOT justified in their stand and should go with the flow. Choosing otherwise will most likely be to our disadvantage.

Date: Wed Oct 15 18:18:08 PDT 1997

I am concerned that by retaining Java's trade mark Sun is going Microsoft's way. What is the assurance that once Java becomes very popular, Sun will not start charging hefty amounts for selling it?

Date: Wed Oct 15 18:23:23 PDT 1997

I applaud Sun for taking legal action against Microsoft. Not only are they justified in doing so, but rather bear the obligation to do so to the Java community. As for why turning the standard over to an independent body is a bad idea, three letters should be sufficient: C++. Nuff said!

Date: Wed Oct 15 18:45:21 PDT 1997

Sun has already forfeited both the technical and proprietary lead in Java applications development to Microsoft and others who actually deliver products of value to end-users. Sun's mission, it seems, for the last year, has been trying to persuade an unreceptive market--ranging from PC users to Webmasters--to drop Microsoft and the Wintel "monolith" in favor of some starfleet quest to establish Java as "the force." Unfortunately for Sun, but fortunately for the rest of us, WE live in the real world and have to earn livings. We like things that work. Hope McNealy gets the message soon.

Date: Wed Oct 15 19:07:15 PDT 1997

I hope this suit is over quickly, but I doubt that will happen. In the meantime, MS will continue to do anything and everything it can to derail the drive towards WORA as it is being developed with Java. This sucks. Everyone loses by MS's actions and attitude. I regret living in the same era as Bill Gates. He has personally done more to hinder the progress of the computer and software industry than any one person or company could have ever done. It will take decades to undo. This just drives us all further down for the sake of protecting his monopoly base.

Date: Wed Oct 15 19:09:23 PDT 1997

I believe the suit will be settled because MS will figure out that trying to kill/steal Java won't work. Once they know it's going to loose them market mindshare, they'll settle.

Date: Wed Oct 15 19:16:06 PDT 1997

I do hardware tech support. Though I use Java quite a bit when I surf the net and or make web pages. I truely am tired of Microsoft's demands on other top technologies of today and of course at times down playing them so they will have the edge. Microsoft has become to big for other companies to pursue a future and or grow with there "Very Hot" technologies in any given frame-work. They either go with Microsoft or fail it seems. Yes, Java is developed to run anywhere. But, again Microsoft has it's hands on it now. What I am afraid of is our future. Technology at some point will become extremely stifled for a very long time if Microsoft continues. I see Java as the answer to all this. If Sun were given the time to develop this language I am absolutely positive that many, upon many doors would be open for future growth. Rather than Microsoft's Dungeon. With no way out!!!

Date: Wed Oct 15 19:17:37 PDT 1997

Sun should release an add on PC card with a Java acclerator chip as soon as possible.

Date: Wed Oct 15 19:25:51 PDT 1997

Microsoft continues to think that they can push around the computer industry and get away with it. The modifications they made to the core java spec are a blatant violation of Sun's license agreement and more importantly another step in a dangerous trend to bend the industry to their will. Microsoft should be punished severely for their actions.

Date: Wed Oct 15 19:58:55 PDT 1997

This is a real shame; Java offers a lot to our Health clients and bickering at this time is totally counterproductive. Whether or not that is the purpose, remains to be seen.

Date: Wed Oct 15 20:14:30 PDT 1997

Sun's doing the right thing. -- Unite for Java! -

Date: Wed Oct 15 20:27:16 PDT 1997

Java is the best I've ever know with its cross-platform ability, we shouldn't let Microsoft to control the market with their poor designed software. As many end-user don't know what's wrong with Microsoft's design's we should let them know how great is Java about its stability and "bug-free" environment Java's offering, not Microsoft.

Date: Wed Oct 15 20:30:31 PDT 1997

Microsoft has been bullying around other companies for a while now. Finding ways to destroy any compition that may interfere with Bill's idea of how to run things. The example of I.E. Vs Netscape. I don't believe that what they have done is fair by delivering "Free" software to the market to kill the compition between Netscape and them. I think that they are planing the same stradigy with JAVA. If they can't have "DESTROY IT!" I personaly do not want to see JAVA technology go by the way side. It has great potential and will continue to grow and become a real challanger to Microsofts domination on the market... That is why Microsoft is so willing to squash JAVA.

Date: Wed Oct 15 20:43:22 PDT 1997

I have read the contract, I have experience with software contracts, Microsoft is clearly in breech. Which part of not modifying the java.* classes dont they understand? Keep the pressure on, Use the FUD the way they have for so many years. Developers need the professional tools and platforms to produce good software, Not the Microsoft crap designed for wanna-be programmers and MFC hackers.

Date: Wed Oct 15 20:59:15 PDT 1997

Please don't let Microsoft turn another great technology into a pile of FUD driver hackery, like the rest of their products. Keep JAVA, java!

Date: Wed Oct 15 21:11:39 PDT 1997

1. Sun's VM should be the reference implementation for Windows platform. 2. I have changed my view on handing Java over to ISO. My view now is Java will progress sufficiently in the next 6 - 12 month ( during which time it will still be effectively under Sun's control ) for the hand-over to be a good thing.

Date: Wed Oct 15 21:37:40 PDT 1997

You know, nothing ticks me off more than writing Java code that works fine on Macintosh/Netscape, Macintosh/MSIE and then bombs for some reason on the NT machine I must use at work. Perhaps my problems are not related, but by god, do I ever hate microsoft!!! Their stuff is so damn clunky, and they have convinced people who don't have to use it that is is somehow good, and it sure looks like Evil Gates is really going to win all the marbles. No justice.

Date: Wed Oct 15 21:58:07 PDT 1997

This lawsuit must show to Microsoft not to attempt to set their bloody standards within the Web, with Windows and all that jazz it is quite enough... perhaps reason shall win over Gate´s ambition...

Date: Wed Oct 15 22:00:53 PDT 1997

I am disappointed that Java is becoming the issue of lawsuits. The language itself if elegant, but all of the implementations to-date suck tremendously and do not deliver on the promises. Dragging Java's name into court in this manner will probably damage its image with the public. Especially with those of us that are really getting tired of all the civil suits flying about these days (yes, I'm one of the ones who view Java in a lesser light now).

Date: Wed Oct 15 22:22:39 PDT 1997

Clearly, the fulfillment of Java's promise will be wonderful for PC users everywhere. Microsoft should be held to the "write once - run everywhere" standard so the lawsuit is justified. The question is whether Sun should turn over Java and, as a shareholder in Sun, that is a difficult question.

Date: Wed Oct 15 22:26:14 PDT 1997

Blah. Java will either live or die depending on its merits. The concept of language splitting is similar to other languages (*cough* C++ *cough*) and serves to push the language further in some respects, and drag it behind in others. In the end, some standard must be agreed upon and the ruling body should be the grunts in the field, not some company trying to sell its shrinkwrap. Having many companies push the language in many directions is only good. It's called evolution. Just don't go extinct.

Date: Wed Oct 15 22:41:38 PDT 1997

Show no mercy with Microsoft. You are in the Final Life and Death struggle with Microsoft. Apply the Lion's Jaws of Death - and survive - bloodied, but victorious.

Date: Wed Oct 15 23:46:21 PDT 1997

Earthy God (Microsoft) is once again trying to control the the world computer functions. If Bill does not get his way he uses his money to force companies who do not comply to either spend all their money and time in dealing with the judicial system in order to financially wear them done. His appalling manor and business practices needs to be stopped and I pray that Sun will not allow their baby to be abducted or rewritten by the devil on earth. Keep up the good work. Many computer users are behind your friendly user java scripts. Good Luck

Date: Thu Oct 16 00:00:48 PDT 1997

We are developing applications for external use in JAVA right now.

Date: Thu Oct 16 00:14:09 PDT 1997

What about JavaOs for those who aren't licensees??

Date: Thu Oct 16 01:55:35 PDT 1997

Microsoft esse delendam!

Date: Thu Oct 16 01:59:37 PDT 1997

No one company should control Java - either Sun or Microsoft. "written once and run everywhere?" depends upon an ISO Java standard.

Date: Thu Oct 16 02:29:02 PDT 1997

i read about the changes microsoft made. i found they are not as hard as i expected when i read first suns statement. lots of developers would be very happy with some more platformspecific features of jdk especially for app's. the *porting* of larger java apps would still be easy, and that's sufficient for some "real world" cases. as long as it is impossible with jdk f. example to draw a dotted line, there is much room for attacks like msoft did. sun should define a two stage subset: a "java core core" for applets and a extended "java core" for applications. the awt used by applets should be more minimalistic (more basic access to OS: proper component hierarchy, proper event delivering, proper printing, proper text input, simple rmi (perhaps by using a simple sheme like PDO of NextStep), this would encourage other compoanies and browser vendors to implement it). Short: More quality in basics, less "Convenience-Api ". because i am convinced, that the java language is a well designed, easy-to-speed-up language, i would be very happy to use it for (easy-to-port) application development instead of some awful VisualBasic or C++(&Mfc) development environment. I'd like java to use in a place where currently (slow) smalltalk implementations are used (f.e.:VisualWorks)

Date: Thu Oct 16 03:58:17 PDT 1997

All I can say is that anyone with half a brain should be able to figure out that Microsoft is pursuing their usual strategy of trying to destroy what they didn't invent, can't buy, and can't compete with. It is interesting how in the press all of the journalists fall for the Microsoft smoke screen: what about Netscape's Java, what about this, what about that? Talk about things that are irelevant to this discussion, listen to everything Microsoft is saying!

Date: Thu Oct 16 04:16:47 PDT 1997

I will not use any Microsoft-specific Java features.

Date: Thu Oct 16 04:30:46 PDT 1997

Smart cards, real time devices, NCs, IBM's adoption of Java. Where does Microsoft figure in any of these upcoming technologies ? What chance does it stand ? Personally, I'm so optimistic about Java, that I have no doubt about it toppling the Redmond monopoly, contrary to most analyst's opinions.

Date: Thu Oct 16 04:34:06 PDT 1997

Go, Sun, Go!

Date: Thu Oct 16 05:08:20 PDT 1997

I think in theory Java could be write once run anywhere but the problem be that MS will use sabotage to prevent it. I'm glad to see McNealy bringing attention to MS's underhanded practices. They have ripped off everyone's technology from the start (CPM) and continue.

Date: Thu Oct 16 05:23:32 PDT 1997

I agree with Scott's view that Microsoft knew that Sun would have to sue. I believe that this is a deliberate attempt by Microsoft to cause confusion about the future of Java and they will attempt to make this confusion last as long as possible - whilst bringing new and alternative products to market. We must not allow ourselves to be derailed by the law suite but continue to introduce new and more powerful Java technologies. Let's hope that like all leaders seeking world domination Bill Gates will attempt to invade Moscow in the winter - is Java his Moscow?

Date: Thu Oct 16 05:26:56 PDT 1997

To avoid damaging controversy Sun would best served (as well as the Java development community) in getting Java in front of a standards organization. Once there is a clearly defined standard that everyone can work from the hesitation to developing mission critical applications in Java will be minimized, and the argument that Sun is using Java as a proprietary tool to gain an edge in the comptetive software market will disappear.

Date: Thu Oct 16 05:30:10 PDT 1997

As developers strive to increase value in their products, they will ultimately determine the fate (and flavor) of Java. While litigation will bring increased attention, it can only slow down this process.

Date: Thu Oct 16 05:53:47 PDT 1997

I think Sun is correct in its position and am rooting for Sun. I am nervous, though, that MS will find a way to ruin Java's platform independence. This would have a bad effect on the computer industry.

Date: Thu Oct 16 06:09:16 PDT 1997

Sun is doing the right thing in trying to keep Java evolution in the proper course.

Date: Thu Oct 16 06:22:37 PDT 1997

A complete, unified standard across all platforms supporting Java is essential for our multi-platform environment. We can not afford to support differing standards (Sun's, Microsoft's, Brand X's) on each seperate operating system that exists (or is likely to exist) on our network. If Sun does not hand the stadard control over to a standards committee, then Sun's standard is the one and only to go by for Java compatability.

Date: Thu Oct 16 06:23:07 PDT 1997

I think it was a mistake in the first place for SUN to license Java to MicroSoft. MicroSoft is overly abitious - as with other products it wants to monopolize Java also. I neither appreciate nor like its quality of Java. In my opinion , Sun should take recourse to either of 2 actions - (1) Hand over control of Java standardization (Java language, Java VM etc.) to some international (ISO) or national (ANSI) organization. Then we can be hopeful of having actually implementing "write once, run everywhere" (2) Take complete control of Java products, stop and revoke licenses to produce Java products from other companies. My choice is (1) Thanks PS: I continue to believe strongly in Java - more so now

Date: Thu Oct 16 07:03:29 PDT 1997

Java is the best thing that has happened to the Software industry in a very long time. Long may it live.

Date: Thu Oct 16 07:22:40 PDT 1997

There will always be Sun's JDK for windows! IBM might even provide one if it has to.

Date: Thu Oct 16 07:27:10 PDT 1997

It seems to me that this whole law suit over Java was precipitated by Sun. If they would have allowed Java to become "open", Microsoft would have had no excuses. I am sure that Microsoft is within their rights in not providing an open door into a replacement of their OS with some Java-based OS. However, it would be hard for Microsoft to claim Jave compliance if they are not truly compliant, but since Java is not an "open" language, what does it matter. Sun has given the impression that Java is an "open" language, but Microsoft has correctly interpreted Sun's intentions. I think Sun should rethink their lawsuit, unless they are just trying to keep Microsoft from claiming Java compliance with a proprietary language owned, controlled and modified by Sun's whim and fancy.

Date: Thu Oct 16 07:43:51 PDT 1997

Sun is tring to become another Microsoft. We don't need Sun to try by bombast, hype and court action to get waht they can't by real competition. Give Java over to a real standards body.

Date: Thu Oct 16 07:47:42 PDT 1997

Go Sun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Date: Thu Oct 16 08:11:19 PDT 1997

One of the big problems in all this is the influence Microsoft has over end users. At least so far, the great push for Java has been primarily developers. But MS figures that if they get their platform to as many end users as possible, developers with HAVE to switch because users will blame "faulty" applications on the application developer, not MS. And now with the lawsuit (even though I think it needed to be done) there's a cloud of controversy that will probably scare off a lot of users anyway. So in a sense, MS can't lose regardless of the outcome of the case.

Date: Thu Oct 16 08:13:35 PDT 1997

If the development community doesn't have the spine to take a stand against Microsoft monopolization now, then we deserve to be owned by them. Choosing the Microsoft approach to product designs might be the best short-term benefit for one's company, but i believe that the long-term cost of having a company's computer systems monopolized by a single vendor is much greater than any such short-term benefits.

Date: Thu Oct 16 08:27:46 PDT 1997

In response to Q.3, it will be good for Java if the outcome of this lawsuit hardens the industry behind Sun and forces MS to join the rest. Seeing as how a standard JVM will still be available through Netscape (assuming they will become compliant with their final release, unlike the versions they have in Beta now for V4), and through Sun, MS users will still be able to have complete cross-platform applications. In response to Q.5, I voted No because the VM is non-standard and tries to extend the language internally. Now if they were to write a fully compliant VM, I would say Yes, seeing as how it is their OS and who better to write such a program, provided they supply Sun with the source to prove compliance. In response to Q.4, turning Java over to the ISO, as long as it can maintain the rate of development will be the best thing that could happen to it. I agree that Sun should not turn over the trademark, but other than that, all other pieces should be submitted as a standard. The Maybe vote represents this difference, submit the entire language, with the exception of the trademarks (The logo, etc). The use of the word Java should be allowed freely, as the use of C++ is now.

Date: Thu Oct 16 08:54:51 PDT 1997

Microsoft's language is not Java, they should call it, oh, maybe J++ or something. It is very close to Java, closer than Objective C is to C++, but it isn't the same language, just as Dutch is not German, although it is very close. With this understood, their language is good. For their purposes, very good. But they should not be allowed to market it as the same language.

Date: Thu Oct 16 08:55:53 PDT 1997

I get the vague impression that people think if Microsoft stops making Java tools for Win95/NT, the whole Java movement will grind to a halt. Why would everyone care so much what MS does, then? Microsoft is not necessary for any part of Java any more than Microsoft is necessary for any part of the C++ language. I frankly don't care what they do in their VM, browser or tools, I just won't use them. Plenty of other companies are developing all sorts of things, myself included.

Date: Thu Oct 16 09:08:18 PDT 1997

Dear Mr.McNealy, Please do me a favor, Get a life !!!!!!!! Best Regards,

Date: Thu Oct 16 09:19:47 PDT 1997

Your survey is outdated. The contract is now publicly available from the Sun and Microsoft sites (although yesterday, the links to the document at the Microsoft site kept coming back blank.) In any event, it looks like Microsoft is definitely breaching the intent of the contract. Microsoft, at their Web site even points to the sections of the contract that they're violating! It looks like they intent to take advantage of some 'loopholes' in those sections, however. For instance, section 2.8d start off stating that "Licensee shall confine the names of all VAOPs to names beginning with ""..." which, by itself, implies that Microsoft cannot do anything to the "java" classes. However, the sentence continues by stating "...and shall not modify or extend the names of public class or interface declarations whose names begin with "java"...". Now, we all know that this last part is supposed to clarify the first part by explicitly stating that "java" classes should not be messed with. But I think Microsoft will take the position that they can add anything they want to the "java" class libraries - as long as they don't modify the names of existing declarations. For instance, adding a parameter to an existing method does not change its name - of course, it changes it's signature, but since "name" is not clearly defined anywhere in the contract, MS could claim that the name did not change. I don't know how Microsoft can justify leaving out JNI, however. That's clearly "removing" an official interface. Just my very long-winded opinion. I think Sun clearly has justification for sueing. Microsoft (despite their propaganda on their q/a Web page) broke their contractual agreement with Sun.

Date: Thu Oct 16 09:42:00 PDT 1997

I think Java will be a success with or without Microsoft.

Date: Thu Oct 16 09:47:50 PDT 1997

Sun blew it big time when it agreed to let Microsoft's VM be the reference platform for W95. This lawsuit will turn off java on the desktop. Isn't it bad enough that there is a 1.0.2 vs 1.1 issue unresolved? Let's get the lawyers to back sun out of the original screw up and really kill off Java! This confirms my fears that sun will do to Java exactly what they did for unix.

Date: Thu Oct 16 09:50:27 PDT 1997

As predicted Microsoft co-opted the technology so that they could spoil/confuse the market and replace it when they had their own technology available. Signing up on the Java bandwagon was just Microsoft's way of being a large enough part of the Java hysteria to influence, learn, sidetrack and stall the efforts. By keeping their name in the forefront, they have been able to not lose developer mindshare and now coerce these same developers into using their substitute product.

Date: Thu Oct 16 10:02:57 PDT 1997

Microsoft's way of trying to gain overall control on the Internet is now also investigated by the European Commission. Furthermore, I do hope Sun will win this battle on java. With only M$ as the major player, IT development would slow down again and descend to a level where quality has the lowest priority.

Date: Thu Oct 16 10:07:25 PDT 1997

Funny. Exactly 1 week after making the decision to become a Java certified programmer, the lawsuit. Here's two cents, Scott, and take it to the bank. If you don't fight the pirates at MS, no one else will! No one it seems has the balls to stand up to Microsoft, and I don't understand why other than money. They (MS) have never designed original code of their own (i.e. Excel=Lotus 1-2-3, MS Money=Quicken, PowerPoint=Harvard Graphics, MS Image Composer=Adobe Photoshop/Illustrator, Access=dBase and so on). From the very beginning with PC-Dos, code which Mr. Gates was hired to modify for IBM, was stolen (legally, of course), re-packaged as MS-Dos, and they have been repeating that business model ever since. Seems this is the first plan of attack on Java. And if they don't plan to steal it outright, they seem to want to splinter Java, so that it can't compete with that crap called Windows. If you cave on this one Scott, I'm leaving the computer industry and going back into air traffic control. I believe in this fight, and I believe that Sun is right. Let me know what I can do to help.

Date: Thu Oct 16 10:09:02 PDT 1997

The MS vs. X battles are becoming quite tiresome. Last month it was Netscape, now its Sun, next week it will be another. They bring two things to mind every time I read them. 1) a schoolyard bully always pushing the limits and occasionally being tested by some newcomer to the school. 2) Companies fearing the biggest and top competitor in their industry and re- acting to their moves instead of proactively setting up strategic plans and focusing on their individual strengths. I'm afraid in the end, those companies always re-acting to MS moves will eventually be left behind. The OS market is one good example and the browser maket is quickly following the same path.

Date: Thu Oct 16 10:17:51 PDT 1997

It is hard to predict what effect the lawsuit will have on the future of Java which I feel is not too drastic. However, it is critical to ensure Java is not diluted. MS has a good established position in corporations which is where the future of Java will be decided for the most part. I feel it is important to have MS in the Java bandwagon but without letting them to make changes or make proprietary additions to the core of Java. May be too much to ask from MS but if developers insist on this MS will comply as they are too customer driven to not do so. Conclusion, rally the developers...:)

Date: Thu Oct 16 10:43:33 PDT 1997

The answer to 3 and 7 basically revolve around what happens with this suit, so they are really what is up in the air. If MS wins, then the answer to 3 is that the suit was bad for Java because it means that Java can mean whatever a particula licensee wants it to mean. That leads directly to the answer for 7, which is that if MS wins, then and therefore "Java conformance" is in the hands of each licensee, then this hurts the write once, run anywhere promise. Sun is doing the right thing, and this should be a open and close case if they have their ducks in a row and the contract is clear cut on what MS had to do to abide by it. All the rest is noise, including the "should Sun turn Java over to a standards body". That is a separate issue from compliance to a contract. But, if you do want to look at that issue, I believe that Sun should retain control of Java, even if they are not a "neutral" body. My company is both a Java licensee and a Sun competitor. But I believe that if Java went to a more neutral body, it would die from committee paralysis.

Date: Thu Oct 16 11:29:09 PDT 1997

The current ruler of the WinTel system (Microsoft) has shown themselves to be corrupt and self-serving. The company will stop at nothing to glutton themselves more money, even if it hurts people or rewinds mankind's technological progress. I say it is time for a new leader. What do we have to lose? The current one is corrupt; we can only hope for a new industry leader that is more benevolent. May Microsoft's head be touted on a pike.

Date: Thu Oct 16 12:17:02 PDT 1997

Can't pretend to be surprised over the lawsuit - it is the Microsoft business model. When NT realy becomes a network capable operating system, it will be warmed over linux.

Date: Thu Oct 16 12:34:37 PDT 1997

I feel that the Sun-Microsoft lawsuit is childish. On the Sun side, they should not be trying to force an unstandardized programming language down the masses throats. On the Microsoft side, they're exemplifying bad form by trying to use their weight in the industry to shift the java language to their own tastes. The java language, like c, and perhaps c++ in the near future, should be given over to ANSI or some other recognized standards institution.

Date: Thu Oct 16 12:41:51 PDT 1997

I believe the Java will continue to flourish even if the lawsuit does not go in Sun's direction.

Date: Thu Oct 16 12:42:13 PDT 1997

Microsoft - be afraid, be very afraid!!!

Date: Thu Oct 16 12:46:55 PDT 1997

While I fully understand Scott's desire to give Bill a sound thrashing in the courts, I think this will only hurt Java in the long run.

Date: Thu Oct 16 12:58:47 PDT 1997

I see Sun as the White Knight trying to slay the monopolistic dragon (Micro$oft), where Java is the lance.

Date: Thu Oct 16 13:22:46 PDT 1997

Java should be submitted for standardization only if Sun can maintain financial control of its investment. I am developing a end-user training/documentation product and could widely expand its functionality and usefullness if Java was used. How can I get the University to pay for it? My problem.

Date: Thu Oct 16 13:56:51 PDT 1997

Sun is being very disingenuous in calling Java open while retaining control over it. Let it cede control to an international organization.

Date: Thu Oct 16 14:09:20 PDT 1997

He wants to kill java for personal profit. $37 Billion is not enough!

Date: Thu Oct 16 14:39:08 PDT 1997

I feel Microsoft has some validity to their argument re: sun can't just keep adding new libraries to the base definition. However, Microsofts alteration of function signatures within the core libraries is evil! An object-oriented language can so easily accept multiple functions with different signatures, the only possible reason I can see for their alterations is to not only make java platform specific, but to require developers to use their developer tools.

Date: Thu Oct 16 14:41:11 PDT 1997

The arrogance of Microsoft is unbelievable! In the past, Microsoft has rolled over anyone who would dare challenge them. This time Microsoft has entered a battle they cannot win. The battle over "Write Once Run Anywhere" is really a battle for the hearts and minds of developers and their companies. Developers love Java. Companies love developers who create software for a larger audience. Developers and their companies love the "economy" of "Write Once Run Anywhere". And as we all know, "It's the economy, stupid!"

Date: Thu Oct 16 15:11:56 PDT 1997

The write-once-run-everywhere reality will have to be coupled with highly strict confirmation with specs. Microsoft has always been inventing their own spec and ask the whole world to follow just because they are MS, and their own software will follow. We do need the java to be "write-once-run- everywhere" so MS must follow the specs. This is also a good opportunity to see MS having their own medicine. Passing java to an international standard org. is good only if that organization has enough expertise to continue on the right track. For now, seems only Sun has enough authority on java. Perhaps Sun should maintain tight control of java until java becomes fairly complete. Just like raising a kid. The kid will need cares from parents until they are big enough to take on their own. fingers crossed.

Date: Thu Oct 16 15:16:54 PDT 1997

It is impertive that Microsoft be brought in line to support 100% Java or else Java will meet the same fate of fragmented UNIX market. The most effective battle ground will the minds and hearts of developers and IT professionals. SUN should always emphasize all the benefit for the developer and the users and why "Write Once and Run Everywhere" is so vital. Choice is fundamentally good for human kind. I grew up in a country that claimed to be "one party" democracy and I hate to live in a free country today with "one" computing platform dictated by one company in Redmond. --pravin

Date: Thu Oct 16 15:18:54 PDT 1997

I think within the next 5 years, the momentium of the number developers using Java will be so great, that it will be a compelling reason on its own for organisations to develop in Java. At that point, even Microsoft will have to develop their core application programs in Java to maintain marketability. I don't see ISO standardisation of Java as important yet. The libraries should be left to stabilize prior to any standardization effort. C++ is not 'standardized' in any meaningful way, but this has not hindered it's popularity.

Date: Thu Oct 16 15:24:24 PDT 1997

4. Should Sun hand over control of Java to an International standards organization? A better answer would be "eventually - not now - its too soon and we've already seen how detrimental standards committees can be - just look at how C++ turned out"

Date: Thu Oct 16 15:38:54 PDT 1997

I hope Sun wins. M.S. is already dictacting to much of the OS market. They (M.S.) are also trying to invade into the media markert too. Talk about monoplize enterprize?.

Date: Thu Oct 16 16:26:34 PDT 1997

Different persons see reality in different ways. I, for one, do not like the all-pervading presence of MicroSoft in everything that I do with computers. However, I recognize that when Microsoft get involved in a certain area, they usually bring considerable value and marketing clout to the effort. In many cases, the company has been a johnnie-come-lately; in those same cases, the eventual result is usually exceptional. Some examples of this trend would be Applesoft preceding Microsoft, Mac's preceding Windows, Netscape preceding Internet Explorer; in all of these cases, Microsoft has improved the end product of the concept (DOS), interface (GUI) and tool (browsers). Sometimes this is due to stiff competition that leads to better products. Most often, it is MS that ends up providing that better product, as well. I've no doubt that MS would bring some exotic flavoring to your Java. I may not like their approach, but my perception of reality is that they are a stiff competitor . . . particularly in an arena where Sun may not have nearly as much market presence. However, I wish you luck in your effort. You may find the best way to protect your Java is by putting into the thermos bottle of an open standards committee with international scope. Jim Thigpenn

Date: Thu Oct 16 16:30:30 PDT 1997

Microsoft should stay out of the Java market. Period.

Date: Thu Oct 16 16:58:03 PDT 1997

We already have a bunch of flavors for C++. Even if Java will fail to be platform-independent it is still great language (much better than C++). I think, we should have platform dependent compilers for Java applications - occasionally we need more speed and would rather sacrifice portability. Having both bytecode form and native compilers would certainly strengthen Java positions in the world. Long live JAVA!

Date: Thu Oct 16 20:10:54 PDT 1997

The developers are the ones who will determine Java's fate. If Sun listens and meets the needs of developers, then Java will succeed.

Date: Thu Oct 16 21:40:27 PDT 1997

Java is a very good idea. I hope all people in the computer world will help in making Java a tool that will make IT people more free and creative. Microsoft is not interested in such exercise but is interested in killing Java. It is up to us ( IT people ) to make a choise ( Thanks to Java now we do have a choise !)

Date: Thu Oct 16 22:08:36 PDT 1997

Java is great in theory, but right now it is too unstable and sucks too much processor. With further developement and hardware acceleration, this might change. I no idea if Microsoft stuck to the contract or not, but it would not surprise me at all if Microsoft didn't stick to the contract.

Date: Thu Oct 16 22:51:14 PDT 1997

Sun are playing right into microsofts hands with this battle. They can't get microsoft to take ie off the market, they can only get monetary compensation from them. And what have microsoft got plenty of, money. By the time this is solved there will be two different standards of java and microsoft will inevitably win. Sun may win the battle, but microsoft will win the war.

Date: Thu Oct 16 23:00:07 PDT 1997

I do believe Java is an excellent programming language, but Microsoft does not like Java basicly. More people use Java, move people will not use MS VB Basic, and more program can be designed for platforms other than MS Windows 95/NT. And this is basicly opposite what MS wants. I support Sun Microsystem

Date: Thu Oct 16 23:34:34 PDT 1997

Java still seems too awkward, unstable, and slow to make me want to use it as of JDK1.1. As far as it's browser implementation goes, the two choices are really poor now. The Netscape's VM takes too long to load and is way too unstable. Microsoft, has a much faster more stable VM but now it doesn't support "Pure Java." Therefore, from both a developer's and a user's perspective, I can't win with Java.

Date: Fri Oct 17 00:12:34 PDT 1997


Date: Fri Oct 17 00:54:31 PDT 1997

Microsoft should not expect to completely dominate any market in the way it has been doing for the past decade. After all there are more people to consider than Gates and his cronies. For years now, business, developers and users alike have had to make do with poor quality software, with Gates- dictated deadlines, half of which are never met. Microsoft releases 'products' that are bug-ridden and flakey at best. I've beta-tested software that is more robust than Windows. For once in the entirely Microsoft-mediocrity-driven area Windows is at last approaching its potential Waterloo. In any other area of commerce MS Windows would never have made the production line. Microsoft's domination and menacing attitude toward PC OEMs is sickening. Free market? No way. Java is a breath of fresh air for me as a developer because it addresses the issues that C++ never did but perhaps should've done. Java takes software development away from the hacky backwaters of uncertainty into a more professional and indeed more fruitful land where engineering skills and personal creativity are liberated for the benefit of business and non- business alike. Monopolies were reckoned a bad thing for world prosperity when the scams of the rennaisance corporations were coming to light. They legislated then, so why on earth do we not legislate now, against Microsoft and any other company that is simply not satisfied with succeeding on its own merits but instead uses money and lawyers to destroy any potential rivals. They are doing it with Java now, and I think, at least I hope, the people who understand the software industry fully are making their protests public. Keep up the good work Sun, but set that standard! Goodwill has a place. You have mine

Date: Fri Oct 17 02:21:12 PDT 1997

The license agreement between Sun and Microsoft does not in one word mention Java as a platform. The only platforms referred to are Win32, Mac, and others (unixes, Sun OS ..). Neither does the agreement mention "write once, run anywhere"

Date: Fri Oct 17 04:08:22 PDT 1997

Microsoft position is not acceptable. As usual, Microsoft is doing everything they could to make users and developers locked and prisoners of their proprietary Windows environment, at the same time claiming to promote "open standards". That is the usual Microsoft policy since years, it will NOT change, and all Microsoft partners will be, as usual, tricked and betrayed by Microsoft... I am quite surprised, everytime to see that companies signing deals with Microsoft are suprised and shocked to see that Microsoft has betrayed them: they use partners when they are useful to them, then they drop them and turn against them (when a company is controlled by a single man, and this single man has no moral fiber or ethics, you could not expect otherwise). If the US Goverment was not looking at Microsoft as a weapon designed to ware commercial and economic war on the rest of the world, they will had sued Microsoft long ago for breaching the antitrust laws, unfair commercial practices, and so on... By the US government and policitians are ready to ignore such charges as they think the advantage of having Microsoft controlling the whole computer industry worldwide far exceed the disadvantages, at least for the moment. Java, amongst other things, is a tool to avoid that a private, American company (Microsoft) controls the whole market of Internet, Intranet that will change our life in the next 20 years. If that happens, the whole world will be despondend of Microsoft and subject to their whims and hegemonistic attitude. In order to do so, the 100% pure Java initiative is really essential, as other actions designed to offer an alternative to Wintel solutions for customers. Relinquishing Java control to ISO could be a good idea to promote Java, but will ISO will be able to have an aggressive stand to defend Java as Sun is doing? I hope so.

Date: Fri Oct 17 06:11:10 PDT 1997

Microsoft is just being Microsoft: Arrogant, Greedy, Self-Centered.

Date: Fri Oct 17 07:09:11 PDT 1997

I think Microsoft should get what they deserve; which is this law suit. I have never liked Microsoft, and for them to breach a contract like this is just what I would expect from them. I hope Sun nails them good. Java should be open to everybody, not just who Microsoft deems worthy.

Date: Fri Oct 17 07:11:04 PDT 1997

The axiom that any publicity is good publicity is not neccessarily true.

Date: Fri Oct 17 07:51:39 PDT 1997

I think this was the best thing that happened. I hope Bill Gates leaves de rest of the World alone.

Date: Fri Oct 17 07:52:51 PDT 1997

Microsofts movtive to fragment the Java language are entirely sinister. They care about no one but themselves. All they are accomplishing by not fully supporting Java is to lessen the support they will get for their browser. Keep up the pressure guys, the developers are on your side on this one. And we like java too much for it not to succeed. I can't see how any developer (with a soul) could possibly support IE,J++,AFC or the SDK. Stephen Gower

Date: Fri Oct 17 08:47:02 PDT 1997

Microsoft's actions are reprehensible. They obviously breached the contract intentionaly in an effort to undermine Java's strength in the marketplace. I will now buy as little from Microsoft as possible and seek alternatives at every opportunity. Furthermore, I will advise clients and partners to do the same. Microsoft has proven itself unworthy of trust in any contractural arrangement.

Date: Fri Oct 17 08:49:02 PDT 1997

Microsoft will win - their legal team is very hot on stuff like this. Suns claim that MS has 'deceptivley' modifed java is vague. MS are pushing their luck, but they seem to have more of it than sun. It would be nice to see java remain pure, but it is a big threat to MS, and I can't see them losing.

Date: Fri Oct 17 10:24:17 PDT 1997

Microsoft broke their contract, and they are relying on the history of the rest of the world following their lead, whether it should or not. This press may do more good for MS than Sun or Java, as every time MS is in the news, people just assume that they are right - after all, they did write DOS, didn't they?

Date: Fri Oct 17 10:49:43 PDT 1997

Java isn't all that special... its been done before. The whole lawsuit debate is dominating the press, and thus is good for Sun and Microsoft. Other things that could more directly address developer and software customer desires are pushed off the table while Sun and Microsoft have a great big huff over what in the end will be almost nothing.

Date: Fri Oct 17 11:22:25 PDT 1997

I sounded off about this in my 2400 word essay "Write Once, Run Anywhere: Why It Matters" at anywhere/ You might like it. -matt

Date: Fri Oct 17 11:49:43 PDT 1997

SUN *must* get Microsoft in line re. JAVA portability or the whole idea will be lost. To accomplish this SUN *must* get the idea across to ordinary users (and the press!) about how MS's actions are a deliberate and typical example of the company's piggery. The suit in itself will accomplish nothing - MS can drag it thru the courts for years until the original issue is mute. Only informed public opinion may have any effect on Microsoft.

Date: Fri Oct 17 12:11:28 PDT 1997

Business has paid the price for the limits of other languages long enough. It will help JAVA fufill it's promise on it's merit and ROI alone! Whether microsoft continues to fragment the market or not will really only affect MS and those choosing to lock their organizations' future to WIN platforms. Many of us have been around long enough to not risk our careers on ANY ONE product. If IBM can manage to "get along well with others" on this topic, Microsoft could but is choosing not to. They cannot hold back the tide!

Date: Fri Oct 17 13:01:12 PDT 1997

Please continue to defend Java and it's promise of "Write once, run anywhere." And please fix all the bugs. But all-in-all, Java is great.

Date: Fri Oct 17 13:13:09 PDT 1997

My feeling is that Microsoft's acts are nothing less than malicious; they represent a deliberate attempt to destroy Java's marketability and hence Sun's competitive prospects in the Windows development market. I pray that the court sends Microsoft a clear message: that a contract is binding no matter how much you're worth, and that underhanded business practices such as these will not be tolerated.

Date: Fri Oct 17 14:04:53 PDT 1997

Sun blew it - the contract's got too many gaping holes. Find a way to get RMI in there, and then focus on the server-side and embedded computing.

Date: Fri Oct 17 16:22:07 PDT 1997

I've been a Windows programmer since the Windows 1.0 beta. Until Java came along, I was solidly in the Microsoft camp. I'm not a person that you would expect to be supporting Java. However, I know when something superior to what I was doing in the past comes along.

Date: Fri Oct 17 19:53:21 PDT 1997

Microsoft is trying to do to Java what it did to C, namely litter it with so much MS specific stuff as to render a resonably portable language totally non portable. If Sun had handed over Java to the Standards body, MS would have flaunted them and perverted Java as well. MS knows its the 800 lb gorilla. Hopefully, Sun can be the tranquilizer dart.

Date: Fri Oct 17 20:31:13 PDT 1997

Sun will ultimatly lose. So will the software industry. The Japanese will take over after Gates dies and Microsoft becomes a dinosaur. Look what happened to General Motors. The larger issue is maintaining the vitality of the software industry. Can this be done in a single-vendor environment? Is diversity necessary to stimulate thought and action? Most of us reading this will be dead before these questions are answered. But, one thing's for sure, it's going to be one Hell of a ride while it lasts.

Date: Fri Oct 17 21:48:19 PDT 1997

The whole point of Java is that it should be run on all platforms regardless of Operating Systems. I am sure Microsoft are just trying to spoil the party - as Java has to be a major threat to their long-term success. Douglas Yule

Date: Fri Oct 17 22:11:32 PDT 1997

Sun has now done more than MS ever could have hoped to do to ensure that Java evolves into "just another programming language." Shooting yourself in the head is a stupid cure for a headache.

Date: Fri Oct 17 22:46:36 PDT 1997

Sun is right to defend Java, however I believe that a lengthy lawsuit will do substantial harm to the language and its great promise. In my opinion, the best foreseeable settlement involves Microsoft agreeing to comply to a Java standard developed by an international organization.

Date: Sat Oct 18 00:46:57 PDT 1997

I think Microsoft should get back on track and stop trying to gain control of the future of Java since this will destroy the spirit of Java wich is (run every where),I think that microsoft did a good job and have added many libaries and functions to the java but its not supposed to be that way becuase we all know that if Microsof continued this then many programmers will move to use MS-JDK and MS VM only so god help us......................!!!!

Date: Sat Oct 18 08:03:18 PDT 1997

first, thanks for taking MS on, seems like everyone else is cowed. seems like one can confidently build java apps, the only downside is that MSIE users would have to download more classes(?) which is a pain but not fatal to java, and maybe an incentive to use Netscape or Hotjava? MS is conscience-less so they could actively mess with java (like they did with Netware and DR-DOS/Windows), so keep the spotlight on. Glad there a smart folks on this side, just hope you can avoid the trap of "becoming your enemy". give 'em hell!

Date: Sat Oct 18 08:27:14 PDT 1997

Hi! I think Sun's really doing a good thing. So many people have seen that the promise of java can be fullfilled technically, and invested in this promise, and this investment has to be managed and protected to not go bad through subversive activities of some of the players. I think now the marketing effort has to DOUBLE to assure enteprises it is right to invest in Java (REAL Java) now. Regards Jarl Fransson

Date: Sat Oct 18 10:09:22 PDT 1997

Let's settle the disputes and get back to work!

Date: Sat Oct 18 11:09:50 PDT 1997

Sun should hand over Java only when the API and the runtime environment are fully stable; say 18 months from now.

Date: Sat Oct 18 11:17:06 PDT 1997

Merits of Microsofts changes to Java not withstanding, Microsoft is wrong. Considering the time it will take in court to settle this issue, say 5 to 8 years, potentially, and also considering the pace of progress in this industry, Sun seems to have misfired in it's attempts to bring Microsoft around... A win in 5 to 8 years is a virtual loss for Java, the Java promise, Sun, and the community they hope to enable. It is obvious that Sun has failed to get Microsoft's attention by treating them as if they were model members of the open computing community. Sun is not speaking Microsoft's language and Microsoft is playing it for all they are worth. If Sun truely believes in Java and the path they have taken, their commitment would be that of a mother protecting her offspring and not that of a politician... Without an injunction, Microsoft will ship this and several other follow-on products thereby establishing a defacto standard through sheer numbers. They can then settle the case either way (it simply won't matter by that time) having made a fortune and either distroying Java, or altering Java to it own needs. Interestingly enough... the development community will not be greatly damaged by any of this. We have never had 100% compatibility and will be able to cope with the 95% compatibility we will get. There will be several groups that will develop all the tools needed to fill the gaps and no single project developed with whatever Java becomes will fail because of Microsoft's actions and Sun's indecisive response. CGK

Date: Sat Oct 18 13:34:28 PDT 1997

It is my personal opinion that Microsoft should start thinking about its developers and stop trying to have a complete monopoly on all parts of the Windows operating system. There is absolutely no reason that Sun and Microsoft cannot work together on Java, and I belive that users and developers would have a more positive view of each company if they did work together on developing an open standard. I have never seen a language more pleasant to write applications in than Java. I would really hate to see the language destroyed because of stupidity.

Date: Sat Oct 18 14:41:22 PDT 1997

I think that Sun should hand Java over to a standards organization when java is more mature (approximately 2 - 5 years).

Date: Sat Oct 18 15:00:47 PDT 1997

Sun is pushing Microsoft to do exactly what the user community wants - To provide a working compliant java vm. Microsoft can't do this without losing their hold on the desktop. However, Microsoft can't win this fight. If they give in they lose the OS war. If they fight they will likely gain the increased attention of the Justice Dept for their anti competitive behavior. I really think that the FTC and Justice Department need to become involved and resoundly slap Microsoft down.

Date: Sat Oct 18 18:24:32 PDT 1997

Why should Sun turn over this technology to a standards body when Microsoft has of yet to publish all aspects of it's operatig system. Documentation it promissed it's VAR's and application developers years ago. Sun has mad every aspect of it's technology "public domain" after it has "set it afoot". Microsoft is more worried about the bottom line than "what may be best for the technology world" and as such fears not the technology but how much it will lose in revenue. The action by Microsoft reeinforce my view that java can level the playing field and take the vendor dependencies out of the picture.

Date: Sat Oct 18 20:29:18 PDT 1997

Microsoft needs to comply with the contract agreement and pay damages to Sun.

Date: Sun Oct 19 08:11:31 PDT 1997

I haven't used Sun systems, and I have been in Computing for 10+ years. Sun's design of Java works on most flavors of Unix, PC and Mac. One's heritage says a lot about one's culture. Sun has its OS and systetms heritage in Univ. Berkeley, and today, BSD and Java are free out there. Microsoft has its heritage in a buy-out of CP/M and turning it into DOS. The heritage is laden with buyouts, hacked integration, marketing trickery, double-talk, stolen ideas, you name it. Immoral, unethical, cowardly. We need a lot less of these evils in our society, corporate or otherwise. ...more... Java is, on a philosophical plane, a brainchild with the potential of unleashing "unity in diversity" in the true spirit of the words. All-inclusive, tolerant, flexible, cross-platform (system and processor level). "Everything basic evolves." Java-core is "basic." The attempt by Microsoft to cut the umbilical cord while the baby is in the womb is reprehensible, and its greed despicable. ...more... BOTTOM LINE: At this point in time, I would put my money with Sun, if the other choice were Microsoft. That being said, should Sun try to make Java a Sun- specific entity, I'd be among the first to vote to boot Sun as well. No, Java should not be given to a Standards Body right now. Market dynamics are too fast right now, and Java can't afford to be sat on for years by a Standards Body. Thank you for listening. Life is short so live every moment.

Date: Sun Oct 19 16:04:58 PDT 1997

I hope that Sun and the rest of the supporters of 100% Pure Java are capable of spreading the work of Microsoft's deceptive campaign to fragment Java. It is not merely a technical or legal battle. It is also, or maybe more of a marketing battle. MS has exhibted that inferior technology can be overcome by brute marketing strength. Grassroots efforts are very needed but corporate strength are even more of an asset in a war as such is arising between MS and the rest of the industry.

Date: Sun Oct 19 19:26:58 PDT 1997

Hang in there against the Empire

Date: Sun Oct 19 21:18:00 PDT 1997

Some people ask if cross-plataform is important. I think it is very important. The computer market should be like TV market: no matter what TV set you have, it will work with whatever channel's out there. It would be really bad if only one group of companies rules all computer industry. After all, the software for PC had great grown because of great competetion among the players in this market: IBM (OS/2), Microsoft (DOS/Win and Office), Apple (MacOS) and others. The issue is that is this final of century, if we don't antecipate the problem and do something, Wintel will have a so big market share we will have no options than accept Microsoft and Intel rules. Wintel is big now already, but we still can do something. Let's do it, before it gets too late. I'm not saying "let's destroy Wintel". After all, I love Windows(but not office). I'm saying "let's make sure we can have options in the future".

Date: Mon Oct 20 00:02:29 PDT 1997

About time someone with some whack took on Microsoft. Just a pity that Microsoft want to spoinl such a nice idea like Java. What PC users should think about is that they do not need IE4 or any Microsoft products to develop Java on PC's. In fact they would be better off not using Microsoft products just to be sure their apps run everywhere.

Date: Mon Oct 20 02:16:47 PDT 1997

I'm really tired of Microsoft bleating on about having passed all of the compatabliity tests better than Sun. They've messed with large portions of the API as if they own it and they don't. I hope they relent to public pressure and get some therapy.

Date: Mon Oct 20 07:41:25 PDT 1997

Microsoft Sucks!

Date: Mon Oct 20 09:39:00 PDT 1997

I hope that all people involved come to their senses & allow Java to become the mainstream computing language of the next century. I hope the law suite turns out to be in favour of devlopers around the world who really want the write once run anywhere motto to hold true.

Date: Mon Oct 20 09:54:26 PDT 1997

Microsoft continues efforts to introduce FUD in the Java market and it's beginning to register at my level. We're worried that Java is going to become a bad choice for Windows development. Microsoft's additions to the JDK with Windows-enhanced items is welcome, but their insistence to alter the core JDK to suit them is unacceptable.

Date: Mon Oct 20 09:59:45 PDT 1997

If anyone is in a position to refute Sun's right of ownership of a programming language, the courts are. If they say MS has a right to implement it how they want it would be the worst possible outcome. I don't beleive they will but there is some chance. I hope Sun retains the control it has which seems reasonable and they are doing a good job of keeping the growth process OPEN.

Date: Mon Oct 20 10:09:18 PDT 1997

Bill Gates and Microsoft are getting too big for public good and need to be controlled by competing companies. They need to learn that just being big does not make them all-powerful and they need to lose from time to time to keep them in line. Microsoft has a habit in the last few years of putting out new products and product upgrades with serious bugs, viruses, and flaws. Whether they have people in there sabotoging the company on purpose or they just need better beta testers to find innocent flaws, I have learned not to trust them and only use Win95 because I have no other choice for the programs I need to run. That is why I think Sun is right to fight and force Microsoft into compliance so that Java is not ruined by Microsofts messes. It is too bad that Apple didn't get better deals in the courts against Microsoft and Bill Gates probably feels guilty for its win even knowing its Win 95 did use concepts from Mac intentionally though it probably wasn't legally stealing. It was the next thing to it. Unfortunately Mac may not recover from its suit and I really hope Sun is not hurt by future actions of Microsoft now that Microsoft says it won't use Java afterall. I don't trust Bill Gates or Microsoft in this issure.

Date: Mon Oct 20 11:36:51 PDT 1997

No more commetns.

Date: Mon Oct 20 11:43:33 PDT 1997

Microsoft needs its hiney booted around a bit by the industry. They are cranking out volumes of inexcusably poor quality products simply to get their foot in a door which never has, and hopefully never will be, open to them. The industry can't be suckered by mere product re-naming and shotty freebies. I understand the Microsoft vision and think they'll only hurt this industry by forcing people into proprietary solutions and inferior technology cloaked by bells and whistles. I would definitely appreciate an apology from MS to the developer community for the way they've misled developersto believe the proprietary windows-centric java-mutant they created was TRUE Java. Many organizations are probably just discovering their investment in Java technology only benefitted MS and stuck the companies with programs which only run on Windows. I'm quite pleased with the suit.

Date: Mon Oct 20 11:45:55 PDT 1997

Microsoft needs its hiney booted around a bit by the industry. They are cranking out volumes of inexcusably poor quality products simply to get their foot in a door which never has, and hopefully never will be, open to them. The industry can't be suckered by mere product re-naming and shotty freebies. I understand the Microsoft vision and think they'll only hurt this industry by forcing people into proprietary solutions and inferior technology cloaked by bells and whistles. I would definitely appreciate an apology from MS to the developer community for the way they've misled developersto believe the proprietary windows-centric java-mutant they created was TRUE Java. Many organizations are probably just discovering their investment in Java technology only benefitted MS and stuck the companies with programs which only run on Windows. I'm quite pleased with the suit.

Date: Mon Oct 20 11:48:53 PDT 1997

Microsoft needs its hiney booted around a bit by the industry. They are cranking out volumes of inexcusably poor quality products simply to get their foot in a door which never has, and hopefully never will be, open to them. The industry can't be suckered by mere product re-naming and shotty freebies. I understand the Microsoft vision and think they'll only hurt this industry by forcing people into proprietary solutions and inferior technology cloaked by bells and whistles. I would definitely appreciate an apology from MS to the developer community for the way they've misled developersto believe the proprietary windows-centric java-mutant they created was TRUE Java. Many organizations are probably just discovering their investment in Java technology only benefitted MS and stuck the companies with programs which only run on Windows. I'm quite pleased with the suit.

Date: Mon Oct 20 11:50:58 PDT 1997

Microsoft needs its hiney booted around a bit by the industry. They are cranking out volumes of inexcusably poor quality products simply to get their foot in a door which never has, and hopefully never will be, open to them. The industry can't be suckered by mere product re-naming and shotty freebies. I understand the Microsoft vision and think they'll only hurt this industry by forcing people into proprietary solutions and inferior technology cloaked by bells and whistles. I would definitely appreciate an apology from MS to the developer community for the way they've misled developersto believe the proprietary windows-centric java-mutant they created was TRUE Java. Many organizations are probably just discovering their investment in Java technology only benefitted MS and stuck the companies with programs which only run on Windows. I'm quite pleased with the suit.

Date: Mon Oct 20 11:55:18 PDT 1997

Microsoft needs its hiney booted around a bit by the industry. They are cranking out volumes of inexcusably poor quality products simply to get their foot in a door which never has, and hopefully never will be, open to them. The industry can't be suckered by mere product re-naming and shotty freebies. I understand the Microsoft vision and think they'll only hurt this industry by forcing people into proprietary solutions and inferior technology cloaked by bells and whistles. I would definitely appreciate an apology from MS to the developer community for the way they've misled developersto believe the proprietary windows-centric java-mutant they created was TRUE Java. Many organizations are probably just discovering their investment in Java technology only benefitted MS and stuck the companies with programs which only run on Windows. I'm quite pleased with the suit.

Date: Mon Oct 20 14:07:32 PDT 1997

It seems that, while all other companies are striving to become more and more compatible with each other (generally speaking) microsoft works towards non-compatability, hoping for monopoly. I personally don't like or use (except under extreme duress) any ms compatable products. Having been exposed to windows, I wondered why it took so much processor power to do very little! Get with the program billg!

Date: Mon Oct 20 14:17:22 PDT 1997

It seems that, while all other companies are striving to become more and more compatible with each other (generally speaking) microsoft works towards non-compatability, hoping for monopoly. I personally don't like or use (except under extreme duress) any ms compatable products. Having been exposed to windows, I wondered why it took so much processor power to do very little! Get with the program billg!

Date: Mon Oct 20 15:07:49 PDT 1997

It seems that, while all other companies are striving to become more and more compatible with each other (generally speaking) microsoft works towards non-compatability, hoping for monopoly. I personally don't like or use (except under extreme duress) any ms compatable products. Having been exposed to windows, I wondered why it took so much processor power to do very little! Get with the program billg!

Date: Mon Oct 20 16:01:20 PDT 1997

Typical Microsoft.

Date: Mon Oct 20 16:40:10 PDT 1997

I'd like to review the contract.

Date: Mon Oct 20 17:40:42 PDT 1997

As usual, Microsoft wants to rule the world. They are trying to control the direction that Java takes. Typically they will then set (own) the standard and control the market. They've done it before and they'll do it again. However, I'm not sure that even Sun can stop the "Gates virus". If Sun transfers control of Java to a standards organisation, it will surely help the development and success of Java but it will probably give Microsoft the opportunity they need to take it over.

Date: Mon Oct 20 17:40:00 PDT 1997

As usual, Microsoft wants to rule the world. They are trying to control the direction that Java takes. Typically they will then set (own) the standard and control the market. They've done it before and they'll do it again. However, I'm not sure that even Sun can stop the "Gates virus". If Sun transfers control of Java to a standards organisation, it will surely help the development and success of Java but it will probably give Microsoft the opportunity they need to take it over.

Date: Mon Oct 20 17:41:23 PDT 1997

As usual, Microsoft wants to rule the world. They are trying to control the direction that Java takes. Typically they will then set (own) the standard and control the market. They've done it before and they'll do it again. However, I'm not sure that even Sun can stop the "Gates virus". If Sun transfers control of Java to a standards organisation, it will surely help the development and success of Java but it will probably give Microsoft the opportunity they need to take it over.

Date: Mon Oct 20 18:23:30 PDT 1997

This lawsuit is to put an end to MicroSoft's subtle attemt and undermining Java as a Write once, run everywhere language.

Date: Mon Oct 20 18:44:30 PDT 1997

It seems that, while all other companies are striving to become more and more compatible with each other (generally speaking) microsoft works towards non-compatability, hoping for monopoly. I personally don't like or use (except under extreme duress) any ms compatable products. Having been exposed to windows, I wondered why it took so much processor power to do very little! Get with the program billg! By the way, is this using a ms product? I keep getting server errors!

Remote host:
Date: Tue Oct 21 04:43:39 EET 1997

Both Sun and Microsoft are the most hypocritical bastards I have ever seen as corporate entities. Java is overhyped on Sun's end as an "open" standard, while they hold the leash and dictate its final direction. Microsoft underhypes Java, while racing to support it, and if possible, split it into proprietary factions. Regardless of the outcome, Java is not likely to ever become the be-all, end-all solution Sun would like, simply because every language has its place, each to its own purpose, and each with its own weaknesses. Unless hardware support for Java becomes a rampant phenomena, its performance issues will hold it back. And while it is still in an evolutionary stage, is it likely that hardware support will be economically feasible? Not likely.

Date: Mon Oct 20 22:14:37 PDT 1997

go sun!

Date: Tue Oct 21 08:03:59 PDT 1997

Based on Microsoft's statements, it is clear that they are concerned about the impact that Java could have on their monopolistic position in the OS market. The reason they dominate today is due to the quantity of third- party applications that run on their platform. Java levels the playing field. Hopefully we will soon see the day that applications are purchased based on the functionality they provide and the problems that they solve, not because they run on a specific OS. Their argument on the "power of the PC" is a feeble attempt to conjure up the emotions of the public.

Date: Tue Oct 21 09:16:52 PDT 1997

I love MicroSoft saying they removed Java from their web site because it wasn't cross platform. They say they're moving to scriptlets in order to have all their pages look the same on all platforms. Yet when you go to many of their pages, you don't see anything if you're using Netscape Navigator (Java applets were often the only thing you'd see). Certainly a case of FUD.

Date: Tue Oct 21 14:11:57 PDT 1997

i hope that sun retaining control of java make jave evolution faster than it would be if a standard organisations where the likes of microsoft have a better opportunity to subotage the rapid evolution. and i hope that sun would resist the temptation to use java in squeezing its rivals, a la microsoft (with the exception of the latter ;-))

Date: Tue Oct 21 16:21:33 PDT 1997

I already filled out this form, but would be very interested in seeing the consensus, if there is any that has/ have been determined. My job at lowe & partners is to keep track of the public perception of sun & microsoft (we do sun's advertising). email me at if i can see the results. thanks, alexa

Date: Tue Oct 21 16:58:01 PDT 1997

I think Sun should control Java now, so that it does not get into the hands of Bill Gates and his associates and they slow-poison it to death.

Date: Tue Oct 21 23:31:12 PDT 1997

In general, I think it is wrong to let Microsoft continue developing operating systems and user applications when their operating system lives on more than 90% of all PC's. Just like ATT, Microsoft needs to be split into to separate companies one doing operating systems and the other application software. Internet Explorer is an application!!!!!!!!!!!!

Date: Wed Oct 22 00:57:44 PDT 1997

java is a future programming language. Please put more effort into it.

Date: Wed Oct 22 06:23:00 PDT 1997

I fully support Sun Microsystem's actions and position on this issue.

Date: Wed Oct 22 11:55:37 PDT 1997

Microsoft is clearly trying to stop, abort, destroy the most basic and attractive Java concept: write once, run everywhere. Its licensing of Java was a mere maneuveur to cause more confusion and fud on market It is a Trojan horse! It is not foreseeable a honest deal with them for the Java future. All forms of sabotage will be implemented. Java must consolidate its position on corporate market before a feasible honest deal. Sun should release FREE a Java VM for all MS platforms, and a independent Internet Explorer 100% Java plugin. As well helping Netscape to stay ahead from Microsoft on browser market. The IE free is a dumping strategy that will kill Netscape browser. Also expending herculean efforts (call all Internet hackers and Linux programmers to help!) to countereffect of Microsoft well known application traps embedded into their operational systems (give Solaris x86 licenses as premiums, computers x86 & SPARC, peripherals, support hours, Hacker´s Hall of Fame , etc, expand market this way).

Date: Thu Oct 16 21:48:11 PDT 1997

Good Luck, The Borg is powerful... Re, Richard

Date: Tue Oct 21 10:00:23 PDT 1997

We are greatly distressed by Microsoft's manipulation Java both with the VM implementation of IE 4.0 and the mandated packaging of IE 4.x with all major PC vendors like DELL and Compaq. Law suites even at $1,000,000 per day will never prevail against Microsoft; a 130 billion dollar company can afford to spend some chump change to monopolize a market( and all the subsequent profits). Sun must move quickly with real muscle with injunctions and restraining orders prohibiting MicroSoft from delivering and licensing IE 4.0 unitl it is fully compliant. However, the only real future for Java however, is quick deployment of cheap Network Computers over the next year that make Microsoft's operating system irrelevant and moot. It is outrageous for every Java invested enterprise to watch Microsoft kill the Web and all its potenial for open computing. Having invested so much time in learning Java, it is a great productivity set back. We will watch this matter closely. Unfortunately, the software content developer must choose the available technology. Without immediate clear action by major Java players, my company like many others will unwillingly begin to vest time into ActiveX and other less desirable but Microsoft technologies. Let's hope Netscape, Sun, Oracle and Novell will standup to Microsoft, appealing to both the Justice department and the American people who never like a bully.

Date: Thu Oct 16 12:36:51 PDT 1997

Java is the future and Microsoft has no right to illegally use it without Sun's consent. Sun is rightfully sueing them, however, is it in the best interest of Java?

Date: Thu Oct 16 11:06:20 PDT 1997

I think this lawsuit should go forth and Sun should hit them with everything they've got. I would like nothing more than to see Sun win this lawsuit and deliver a crushing blow to the tyranical Microsoft. Okay maybe that's a little harsh to say about Microsoft but they deserve it, besides Bill Gates bugs me.

Date: Thu Oct 16 11:57:10 PDT 1997

Go get 'em, Scott!

Date: Tue Oct 21 10:08:06 PDT 1997

Question 3: The lawsuit is not good for Java, but it is necessary to maintain Java as a standard. If Sun gave up Java to a standards body, then who would sue Microsoft for being incompatible? No one would, and Java would become just another "standard" that no one is really compliant with, like C++ or SQL. Sun brand Java is more standard than any ISO standard Java could ever be. This is true regardless of all the mushy-headed whining about Java standards in the editorials of the computer papers.

Date: Sat Oct 18 01:28:36 PDT 1997

Could Microsoft have finally overreached itself? One hopes so.

Date: Thu Oct 16 10:26:06 PDT 1997

Sun shoudl maintain Java as a core technology that they have created and developed. They should treat it as such by not allowing any one to alter their vision of it's future, or giving them leave to make that future falter. Would Sun allow IBM to put out a "SparcStation" that had a pentium processer and ran Windows 95? They should not allow the same with Java. Sun should be it's own standards body just like any other company is if it cares about the products it produces. Java has been embraced, it will be used if it remains usable. Sun should use that as leverage.

Date: Thu Oct 16 22:52:37 PDT 1997

An application can conform to a standard when and only when it conforms 100% !

Date: Thu Oct 16 23:21:43 PDT 1997

Performance will be crucial, so work on the VM and the Compilers. Always write 100% Pure!

Date: Thu Oct 16 12:50:12 PDT 1997

It appears to me that Microsoft is attempting to deliberately cripple Java in an attempt to secure its Monopoly of the industry. The reality is that most businesses would attempt to do the same thing if they could. In the long run, I think that Java's days as a universal language are numbered. There will be Microsoft's version - which may or not be called Java, and there will be rest of the world's version.

Date: Sat Oct 18 10:44:44 PDT 1997

Billions of dollars are being lost in the world economy because of the buggy programming that results from using inadequate operating environments. Java is the best hope of alleviating this hemorrhage. Sun has shown itself to be a generous and trustworthy promoter and maintainer of the Java standard. No other organization is so well positioned to provide this service. With the continued acceleration of our dependence on computers, this decision may be of large significance for the continued success of the world economy, and the creation of surpluses in business, and efficiencies in government, that can allow society to focus on pressing social and environmental needs.

Date: Thu Oct 16 12:29:51 PDT 1997

I think that Sun is correct in trying to maintain a standard version of Java. There must be a core of classes which are always the same, regardless of platform. Microsoft should be forced to include the full platform, and let the developers choose the technology that they feel is the best.

Date: Sun Oct 19 08:57:29 PDT 1997

Question # 5 is rather poorly worded. "Sun says Microsoft's VM is not the reference implementation for the Windows platform. Should it be?" could be taken to mean 1) That Sun is wrong and whatever M$ makes should be considered the "reference implementation for the Windows platform". 2) That Microsoft should be forced into making it comply with the standards so that Sun would consider it the "reference implementation for the Windows platform".

Date: Sun Oct 19 08:45:20 PDT 1997

It is important in this time of growing digital communications that standards be set quickly. Java may not be perfect but at this point in time, considering the near industry-wide support it is receiving, it presently represents, by far, the most appealing solution.

Date: Thu Oct 16 09:40:42 PDT 1997

I am concerned that the suite may drain Sun of economic resources. Microsoft has the money to drag out a lawsuit forever... If the suite is not settled quickly, or not to the favor of Sun, I feel it could have a bad impact on Sun, Java, and Unix.

Date: Thu Oct 16 21:13:02 PDT 1997

Sun is doing 100% of the right thing.. They should absolutely keep up their amazing work! Micro$oft is doing what it always has: doing whatever it can to kill off competitor technology no matter if it's better than Micro$oft's products, or if their actions have an extremely negative impact on people around the world. Micro$oft cares about NOBODY. Micro$oft lies. Micro$oft cheats. Micro$oft steals. And, Micro$oft has the same unfair, biased, uncaring attitude that made IBM crumble several years back. Micro$oft will also suffer the same fate eventually, and we'll all be better off. I personally thank Sun and Netscape for helping us all out of Micro$oft's death grip!

Date: Thu Oct 16 09:40:01 PDT 1997

Sun is already a bit too preoccupied with Java -- this lawsuit probably makes this worse.

Date: Tue Oct 21 09:54:47 PDT 1997

I don't think my university, in the guise of the ITS department, is inclined to start buying Java applications until the dust has settled. Some people may be purchasing applications for use on their workstations, I cannot really comment about that. But I can say with some confidence that this institution most often follows the leader, and that has tended to be Microsoft. My own opinion: I want 100% Pure Java (ASAP on Mac), and I will avoid anything that is headed in a different, or self-serving, direction. I'm afraid that ISO won't be able to control proliferation of dialects, so I think Sun should retain control until 100% Pure Java is established as the standard. Unfortunately that involves defending it in the courts. I wouldn't let the Apple market fluctuations affect Sun's committment to the Mac -- it looks to me to be poised to be the major Java development platform if it isn't abandoned prematurely, so I'd support, promote, and exploit the Mac reputation if I were Sun. I applaud McNealy and Sun for the whole idea of Java, anyway. Go get 'em!

Date: Thu Oct 16 13:11:36 PDT 1997

Microsoft's only intention when they entered the Java tools market was to gain a significant following of developers and then lead those developers down a Microsoft operating system dependant path, thus destroying the cross-platform benefit of Java. If they can accomplish this, they can then realign the developers to other more efficient OS dependent versions of other languages. (C++,VisualBasic) A language like Java needs the leadership of a single company, like Sun, so long as that company is willing to be a champion of open-standards and cross-platform compatability. Letting a committee or a group of companies determine the fate of a language like Java puts it at risk of being fragmented with a please-all-the-proprietary ideas focus instead of an open-standards focus. It also would slow down the maturing of the language. At this stage in the computer industry a language that stays immature too long would die. (Precisely what MS would like to happen.) Java levels the playing field. It allows developers without the vast resources of Microsoft to easily develop and distribute quality applications. It opens up the door to a greater freedom of enterprise in the software industry. Microsoft can clearly make more money with their software products when the spirit of free enterprise is limited. Tom Canova 918-661-3196

Date: Sat Oct 18 01:15:02 PDT 1997

I hope, emphatically, for a favourable outcome for Java from the Sun/Microsoft lawsuit, but fear that the process will take too long to prevent the flood of free IE4.0 without real Java across the Web. I wish Sun the best of luck in their suit and their goal to create a "Write Once, Run Anywhere" language.

Date: Thu Oct 16 09:21:16 PDT 1997

Microsoft has a long-established history of bullying, lying, intentional sabotage of competitors' products, and the use of secret API's to benefit their own applications. Sun, on the other hand, has a long-established history of cooperation and openness. A character in C. S. Lewis's novel "That Hideous Strength" says: "I am giving you a chance to be on the side that's right. I don't know which one will win." That's about how I feel.

Date: Tue Oct 21 10:34:17 PDT 1997

Microsoft can and should add features and functionality to Java, but they should do it within the framework provided by JavaSoft and not try to redefine Java all by themselves. They can submit proposals to JavaSoft (who I believe will listen) and add functionality outside of the "java" packages (and I hope they will continue to do so). But modifying the core of Java the way they have can only be viewed as an attempt to sabotage Java as a cross-platform environment.

Date: Mon Oct 20 22:09:24 PDT 1997

Good luck. I wish Java the best. I think a *LOT* may depend on what happens in consumer-electronics... whether or not Java or Microsoft-CE becomes the primary computing platform for the next generation of Televisions, DVD players, etc, etc.

Date: Thu Oct 16 08:56:47 PDT 1997

Sun and Microsoft need to settle their differnces quickly. I am a Java fan but am going to be forced to use MS products by market reality. Sun may win the battle but will lose the war.

Date: Thu Oct 16 08:33:40 PDT 1997

The language should stop being described as an operating system and more as a language. Overstating expectations will be bad for the overall success of JAVA. JAVA itself is not the cure for all problems.

Date: Mon Oct 20 10:43:24 PDT 1997

A "write once, run anywhere" effort will never be able to compete with the very competative and innovative environment created by unfettered competition. There is definitely a market for portable applications, particularly web-centric applications. However, standard class libraries will always lag far behind vendor specific solutions. Standard based solutions will always have a limited audience.

Date: Fri Oct 17 01:42:45 PDT 1997

Microsoft isn't competing with good product, they are competing by killing the competition. If they had a clean Java VM, we'd stick with NT because we find it is a good OS, but now they are trying to fragment Java, we'll choose alternative technologies where it is feasable.

Date: Tue Oct 21 09:13:48 PDT 1997

Java must remain pure! We have already run into compatibility problems between Sun's AppletViewer, Netscape's browser and Microsoft's browser. I personally have had more problems getting things to work under Microsoft's browser when the same applet has no problems under Sun's AppletViewer and Netscape's browser. In the world market where numerous operating systems exist, Java applets and applications must be developed in an environment that does not lock them into a specific OS. While Microsoft states that they are merely making available the features of the OS if the developer so chooses, they are ignoring the facilities already available in the Java Native Interface. They are implementing their own version which actually locks the applet or application into the Windows platform. As a developer focusing on the world market, this will never do!

Date: Thu Oct 16 08:22:44 PDT 1997

Having lived through Sun's splintering of the Unix market, in particular the war over OpenLook vs. Motif, I am extremely annoyed at Sun for taking extreme measures yet again. If they truly want to make Java what they promised it to be, they need to relinquish some of the control over the language and place it in the hands of a standards body. Scott McNealy's constant Microsoft bashing has also caused me to lose confidence in Sun Microsystems. If they're not careful then they will ensure that Windows NT will eclipse Unix in the Open Systems market. This would be unfortunate.

Date: Sun Oct 19 12:25:30 PDT 1997

There needs to be a good office application developed in Java that meets the requirement of being transparently no different in response time than Microsoft apps.

Date: Mon Oct 20 14:40:27 PDT 1997

Question 4 is poorly phrased. By applying to the ISO/IEC JTC1 to be accepted as a PAS Submitter for the Java specification SUn would become an extension of the ISO in that respect. Your questions says "Should Sun hand over control of Java" but ISO would be granting legal recognition to SUn as its steward.

Date: Mon Oct 20 14:35:01 PDT 1997

Go Sun Java!!!

Date: Sat Oct 18 05:27:37 PDT 1997

Maintain the preesure on Microsoft

Date: Sat Oct 18 19:21:23 PDT 1997

It will be interesting to find out how much Sun spent to develop Java. I think if we are to ask the company to open the technology, then it probably is reasonable to prepare to pay some royalty fees for some fixed duration of time, say 5-7 years, as a percentage, say 1-2%, of a software price. I am no expert at all but it seems reasonable to assume that development of an efficient language far exceed any one company's capacity; it would take a world to achieve it. But at the same time we should pay respect to the initiative taken by Sun.

Date: Thu Oct 16 07:32:30 PDT 1997

Sun should relinquish control of Java as promised and allow external API's to be written into the development platform. Microsoft should adhere to the original code; however, if the API's and libraries added are of a varient, it should be so noted with the original code also available.

Date: Thu Oct 16 07:45:55 PDT 1997

The competition between Sun and MS is good for everyone. The products produced by both will be better due to scutiny and focus that has been put on Java.

Date: Thu Oct 16 17:17:40 PDT 1997

To win in court, Microsoft is going to need the OJ jury.

Date: Sat Oct 18 15:14:24 PDT 1997

Question 4 should be worded differently. The java specification is what should be controlled by ISO - NOT the java product (or licensing).

Date: Thu Oct 16 08:29:38 PDT 1997

Kick ass and have fun, McNealy.

Date: Sun Oct 19 09:45:24 PDT 1997

Good luck with the lawsuit. Biggest problems with Java (but you already know this): 1) Microsoft 2) Lag in support from 3rd party vendors (many still don't have full JDK 1.1.X support) 3) Speed, speed and speed

Date: Thu Oct 16 14:03:35 PDT 1997

The only problem with java is the bugs that do not get fixed even though they are reported to sun. There should also be better feedback so developers can find out about bugs that are getting fixed or are already known about.

Date: Thu Oct 16 06:31:17 PDT 1997

My attitudes about Java have tempered over the last six months. I program in Java, want to use only pure Java, and think it is the best language for me right now. However, I no longer blindly think it is the ultimate language or environment. Now I think it is a _very_ important step in the direction of open systems. The closer we can get to having a truly "write once, run anywhere" environment with Java the better positioned we will be in the next 10 years for solving more business problems instead of technology problems.

Date: Fri Oct 17 19:25:50 PDT 1997

MIcrosoft want's Windows and only Windows on everyones system and their products and does NOT JAVA.

Date: Thu Oct 16 02:40:58 PDT 1997

The lawsuit seems to be more for the 'publicity factor' than for anything else. And even if the lawsuit goes on, both parties are going to continue their developments in the directions that they had set out to do. It is more important for both the giants to actually reconcile with each other and then continue the development of the Java technology which might become the defacto in the future. And in any case, this lawsuit is in NO way going to affect the masses around. Well then, WHO CARES! Each of them is trying to gain some mileage out of the whole issue.

Date: Thu Oct 16 06:48:35 PDT 1997


Date: Sat Oct 18 07:40:02 PDT 1997

As a student soon to enter the work force, I admire the innovation and independence of Sun Microsystems to promote a new OOPL aiming to bridge the platform gap that has fragmented the programming community and left end users stranded.

Date: Thu Oct 16 05:57:06 PDT 1997

Take 'em to court, kick ass and take names!

Date: Thu Oct 16 14:10:21 PDT 1997

Question number 7 in a little vague the reality it there are two levels of application programing. Things like speach recognition etc (next wave of technology) can not be created in the WORA enviroment, however if you are willing to sacrifice robustness you can write once run anywhere. For myself because we deal with end users a lot these new forms of technology, (which makes computer more human like) are very popular.

Date: Thu Oct 16 20:41:40 PDT 1997

The original idea of "write once run everywhere" was great but Microsoft looked set to spoil the party. And I am not very optimistic of the lawsuit. Win or loose this case, MS is most likely to win where it really matters - the mass market. With a installation base of 90%, what would you do if you are a small developer (actually virtually all are small in comaprison to MS). I wish you luck. I really like Java and it's 'WORE'. But real life goes on and I have to bring home the bacon. Mean time I would stick with Sun's Java1.1.

Date: Thu Oct 16 06:28:29 PDT 1997

IBM and Netscape do not appear to be visible in their support of Sun's legal initiatives against Microsoft fact I would like to see a number of the 117 licensees join the suit against would make sense and good PR for Java and Sun

Date: Thu Oct 16 05:59:27 PDT 1997

Java was developed by Sun, so why do Microsoft want to derail it? If Java wasn't important, Microsoft wouldn't bother, so it seems that once again, Microsoft wants more than just a slice of the cake - it wants it all!

Date: Sat Oct 18 06:34:01 PDT 1997

Sun needs to actively support ports to platforms other than Solaris and Win32. (eg quickly sorting out licensing for the Linux porting effort etc)

Date: Thu Oct 16 05:46:58 PDT 1997

If the lawsuite drags on it would put Java on an unclear path for all the parties, especially developers, involved.

Date: Thu Oct 16 05:46:49 PDT 1997

I think the lawsuit with Microsoft will hurt Sun in the end. What is the difference between both of you? Nothing. Both are attempting to monopilize.

Date: Thu Oct 16 06:28:11 PDT 1997

IBM and Betscape do not appear to be visible in their support of Sun's legal initiatives against Microsoft fact I would like to see a number of the 117 licensees join the suit against would make sense and good PR for Java and Sun

Date: Sat Oct 18 13:49:37 PDT 1997

Please give Java to a non-commercial group! As it is Java distribution has been severely threatened. . . We don't care about who makes money. . . We want to use Java.

Date: Thu Oct 16 05:26:40 PDT 1997

Here most of us dislike MS's ethical approach to ITs and hope there will be at least one full circle alternative to it, so our prayer is: "go ahead and don't let us down"

Date: Thu Oct 16 05:52:49 PDT 1997

The momentum gain by Java one year ago has been lost by slow evolution (too long awaited JDK 1.1) and IMHO this sue will kill Java! and it's why Micro$oft did it :-(

Date: Thu Oct 16 05:24:58 PDT 1997

I see the biggest danger in Microsoft's losing. They may decide to drop the meager support they've already given Java and crank up the FUD campaign. Considering how difficult it is to escape the "We can be heroes" ads now, I'd hate to see Microsoft decide to _really_ go after the public opinion of Java.

Date: Mon Oct 20 15:14:51 PDT 1997

Microsoft is requiring NT 5 Early Access participants to promise support for MS JVM. If the MS JVM remains incompatible with Sun's reference implementation, choosing between the two will become difficult for even the strongest Sun supporters.

Date: Fri Oct 17 17:28:23 PDT 1997

I Think write once has heart but in a capitalist country Your dreaming. Good luck...

Date: Thu Oct 16 05:23:35 PDT 1997

M$ must be stopped from fragmenting Java. This is crucial to all of us in this industry and all users who buy ANY software. If you develop or feel strongly about this, please come to and make your feelings known. Mark Wilson

Date: Thu Oct 16 05:05:39 PDT 1997

We are currently developing a JAVA application that will support many different platforms. Java features we need are its packaged API, Object Oriented technology and Multi platform support. My position with MS is that if they don't directly support Java in the browser, third parties will come along and support Java correctly. MS should worry about a Java VM/OS that supports both Win executables and Pure Java.

Date: Thu Oct 16 08:23:55 PDT 1997

Microsoft is used to bullying smaller companies to its own benefit. This time however, I think they underestimated their "victim". If MS gets control of Java, it will become "write once, run nowhere." I wish you a speedy and favorable outcome in this litigation.

Date: Thu Oct 16 05:20:07 PDT 1997

Both Microsoft and Sun Microsystems produce fine products. However I am really disappointed in Microsoft in that they would dare acclaim to be JAVA 1.1 compliant and then not really be JAVA 1.1 compliant. This behavior is not becoming of good profitable business. In spite of all the hodge podge that's out today in the universities about business ethics, the vital truth is, the same ethics that apply to every day life apply to business. Those who cheat to make profit in the short run will loose it in the end! Psalms 73

Date: Thu Oct 16 23:58:43 PDT 1997

Legal bickering is really not good for anyone, but in this case, I think that Microsoft is clearly in the wrong. If Microsoft ever really looked to the interests of developers and users (customers), they are clearly showing a blatant disregard for the best interest of their user and developer community now.

Date: Thu Oct 16 15:37:30 PDT 1997

Sun should give control of Java over to ISO and then let it fight Microsoft for not implementing a worldwide standard correctly. Sun's unwillingness to release control of the technology shows that they want a monopoly just as Microsoft's. If they don't open the process fully and release control of the trademark, they can't attack microsoft for not doing so with windows...

Date: Thu Oct 16 15:58:42 PDT 1997

Hold the line.

Date: Tue Oct 21 01:59:27 PDT 1997

I think Microsoft is purposly fragmenting Java and undermining the "write once, run anywhere" philosophy. According to Microsoft, "Java's a great programming language," but nothing else. They fail to see the real reason why it has generated so much enthusiasm, and that's Java's cross-platform promise. I also feel that, based on Sun's past actions, both with regards to Java and their committment to open standards, Sun Mictosystems should be named the Java PAS submitter.

Date: Thu Oct 16 02:29:33 PDT 1997

I just hope that Java will survive and thrive as a programming language. I also hope that it will develop into a powerful alternative operating system. My third hope is that the power of Microsoft will not kill Java. It is clear that Microsoft can see the potential of Java and fears for retaining its dominance in the future. This fear is translated into actions which is the basis of the current dispute between Sun and Microsoft. LONG LIVE JAVA!

Date: Mon Oct 20 17:06:41 PDT 1997

I strongly support 100% Pure Java.

Date: Wed Oct 22 03:20:42 PDT 1997

When the giants fight, the ants (like us) get trampled. Some non-profit organisation has to take over control of Java.....there are just too many differing/conflicting stuff out there for the internet world today, and it is all profit oriented and with the mindset of Microsoft VS the rest of the world. Arent we sick of it?????

Date: Tue Oct 21 16:59:25 PDT 1997

I'm not a lawyer (yet), but I've had enough law classes to read a simple contract, and this is a pretty simple contract. Microsoft is so out of line here that I can't imagine how they can hold onto any credibility in the press at all. The contract is clear, they have blatantly violated it, and they are lying through their teeth about it. I will be amazed if the court fails to grant the injunction or fails to find for Sun.

Date: Fri Oct 17 07:54:49 PDT 1997

Microsoft does not need to win the lawsuit. Simply continuing to give away IE and sell the associated development tools for as long as they legally can will give Microsoft a large enough base of their version of Java such that vendors will not be able to ignore it.

Date: Mon Oct 20 10:31:57 PDT 1997


Date: Fri Oct 17 09:22:30 PDT 1997

The fight with Microsoft is bad for everyone. Get over this Holy War. Microsoft did a good job with Java in IE4. Netscape didn't comply either with their Communicator 4.0. Isn't this just more anti-Microsoft rhetoric?

Date: Fri Oct 17 15:21:03 PDT 1997

I do not want JAVA to be a MicroSoft proprietary solution. I want Java to be a Cross-platform OS that provides a safe development environment. I want "Write Once; Run everywhere capability".

Date: Wed Oct 15 22:20:56 PDT 1997

My company builds an enterprise distribution system for medical images. We need to be browser-neutral, and we may need to support NCs. If Microsoft can toy with the central VM then we'll probably fail because it will create too much uncertainty for us and for the market. Other vendors will start to add/subtract functionality. I'll go postal! :-) Don't cave to these guys.

Date: Thu Oct 16 00:56:39 PDT 1997

I see the lawsuit as being deliberatly provoked by microsoft to fragment JAVA. Judging by my own feelings about this and what I hear from developers, it will backfire on MS in the developer community. I see a real danger in marketing backlash of java based SW. Many MIS managers are (in my opinion) illiterat and believe the everything the redmonton marketing machine says.

Date: Mon Oct 20 16:07:23 PDT 1997

This lawsuit is going to give even more publicity to Java than it already has. Sun will use the limelight to tell the Java story, and the result will be a backlash against Microsoft. Even if Microsoft wins the suit I think developers will not code to the MS extentions in Java because they are sick of being chained to the ankle of MS and being dragged around on the ground like rag dolls against their will.

Date: Fri Oct 17 06:38:29 PDT 1997

If Microsoft wins this lawsuit there will be no "write once run everywhere" using java. If Sun wins, we wait and see. I hope Sun did everything it could think of to settle out of court before pressing the suit. We can only hope now that some of the other big players (IBM, Oracle) play along with Sun. The other big question is what the tool vendors are going to do.

Date: Tue Oct 21 06:28:05 PDT 1997

Question 6 issues have no importance: the lawsuit already has financial effects on Sun and Microsoft. The development of Java "write once - run everywhere" strategy depends much on putting Java in consumer electronics, like Web phones or PDAs: the alternative is Windows CE, but the industry looks more confident in Java.

Date: Mon Oct 20 12:36:51 PDT 1997

We look at Java as a great potential with a lot of short-term shortcomings. We need faster and more consistant JVM's. If the Java companies (ie Sun, Netscape, IBM, et al) can keep together and deliver on the JVM's and the enterprise connectivity, then intranet builders will deploy whatever needs to go on the desktop (Netscape for example) as a standard browser. Java needs to be an open standard, and it gets harder and harder to sell to the front office unless Java gets turned over to a standards body.

Date: Tue Oct 21 14:27:28 PDT 1997

Java is the only language to offer write once run anywhere capability that has garnered the support of so many in such a short time. The playing field is level and there is room for a Microsoft to make money with the others; but no special hidden "Microsoft only" interfaces should be permitted. Use Visual Basic!

Date: Wed Oct 15 21:52:46 PDT 1997

Java's development is at a point where it's promise can be realized -- the portability of it speaks volumes. Java is the proper path for any business that has more than just PCs (including NT) and expects to grow. Java makes perfect sense when approached from an "enterprise" point of view. The Java community should contact both Sun and Microsoft to stress the portability aspect of Java and not attempt to tie it to a particular platform. Remember: Java IS the platform.

Date: Wed Oct 15 19:20:41 PDT 1997

Don't start sounding like Lenny Bruce. Get on with it...

Date: Fri Oct 17 07:13:54 PDT 1997

My concern is that the lawsuit may drag on for a few years, possibly making people cautious about adopting the technology until the dispute is settled.

Date: Fri Oct 17 11:28:58 PDT 1997

Bill, Not everything in the world has to be a M$ monopoly.

Date: Wed Oct 15 23:08:50 PDT 1997

I think Java is fantastic. I've read your ammended complaint against MSoft & thought it was very well written. Regardless of whether or not you win the lawsuit, however, Java will be successful if you accelerate development & work on the "details" such as fixing bugs. The only recommendation I could make is to have some lower-priced training courses (I realize you're giving JDK away for free & there's a limit to how much work you can do for no money). Once more programmers realize how fantastic Java is, it will be unstoppable (if it isn't already). Keep up the good work! Joe Cury

Date: Wed Oct 15 21:03:31 PDT 1997

Beat those basterds bloody.

Date: Mon Oct 20 06:17:57 PDT 1997

Microsoft may have the reference VM for Windows provided it is according to the Standard. Otherwise somebody else must do it. Java will run everywhere provided Microsoft gets in line or is excluded. I'm sure somebody else can do the VM for Windows, but it would be simpler if Microsoft did it.

Date: Mon Oct 20 22:22:34 PDT 1997

Microsoft, is a monopoly. They had changed JDK1.1 core classes, to make applications run only on MS-JVM (their version of JVM in IE4). I strongly condemn this as MS also misleads many developers, that they support 100% Java and Write Once Run Anywhere technology! They give no choice to developers but claim so! No business ethics. I have experienced difficulties in UNINSTALLING some of the Microsoft product IE ...their products take certain unequivocal decisions delibrately to make me repent uninstalling!

Date: Wed Oct 15 20:27:11 PDT 1997

Any moves I make in the direction of Java for anything have been postponed until this issue is settled. This is the worst possible move for Sun to make. If the folks responsible for Java are irresponsible enough to have brought this lawsuit, Java's future is mighty dim. Maybe the future is ActiveX after all.

Date: Thu Oct 16 02:37:46 PDT 1997

I think that the lawsuit will generate too much negative publicity for Java's 'ethos'. Best to get it over and done with ASAP, and get Microsoft back in line. They are too important to do without. I think the lawsuit should be dropped IF they agree to add their Windows stuff to Java as a *superset* of the core classes (instead of subtractively). That is a reasonable compromise.

Date: Fri Oct 17 07:58:09 PDT 1997

Microsoft is clearly attempting to fragment the Java community in an effort to head off the 'write once, run anywhere' concept that it sees as a threat to its business. For years now, Microsoft has been competing unfairly in the applications business using the advantages it enjoys as the leading desktop OS vendor. These advantages are legion: earlier access to new versions of the OS, access to hidden API calls and the ability to eliminate sucessful competitors like Netscape by "bundling" competitive products in with the operating system. It's hard to believe that U.S. regulators have failed to respond to this blatent cross-subsidization yet. Microsoft's calls for Java to be prematurely controlled by an international standards body are misleading. Such bodies typically have sluggish reaction times (look at the Fortran 90 fiasco) and are more suitable for relatively mature products. This is just another of Microsoft's public relations efforts to torpedo Java before it gains too much momentum. Hopefully, the Sun Java suit will be the catalyst for a monopolies investigation that results in Microsoft being judicially broken up into separate Operating System and Applications companies. Microsoft and its people make some good products, but the expression 'absolute power corrupts absolutely' applies to them perfectly at the moment. The Java community should make it clear that Microsoft's actions are recognized for what they are: blatent self-interest. Whether the Java standard eventually develops as a open standard with Sun or an international body as the custodian is irrelevent; what's important is to ensure that the cross- platform concept is protected from attacks by vendors that want to perpetuate the practice of tying buyers to one platform and OS.

Date: Wed Oct 15 20:32:38 PDT 1997

Try to get this lawsuit over quickly. This is all negitive press as far as Java goes. I don't think Java should be handed over to International standards organization as it doesn't help the language. As far as I can see Java will develop better in Sun's hands, but it should have an open forum as to how it works. Much like Unix, but there is a standard which everyone follows.

Date: Wed Oct 15 19:56:22 PDT 1997

Sun Go for it, teach Microsoft a lesson

Date: Tue Oct 21 05:01:39 PDT 1997

Microsoft's monoplistic practices prove that they will stop at nothing to beat the competition. They do not care about the quality of the products they shove down the throats of the world and try to break the competition instead of being better than it. I think Microsoft is bad for computing, bad for the world economies and bad for the world in general, which will be a better place once Microsoft is defeated, as all evil empires are destined to be.

Date: Fri Oct 17 11:28:00 PDT 1997

Java without Microsoft is like a bomb without a fuse. And I happen to like that. Without Microsoft, there will still be Java on Windows. No matter what, there'll be Java everywhere..... in your office, in your house, in your bed, in your hopes and in your dreams. Viva Java. Long live the King. The Dragon

Date: Mon Oct 20 08:12:35 PDT 1997

Java is a good thing. Microsoft eats good things for breakfast. We get stuck with microsofts sh*t when they are done with it. --

Date: Wed Oct 15 19:56:23 PDT 1997

Nothing can stop this juggernaut we call Java. The lawsuit will not change the outcome nor will any posturing by M$. I saw it's promise 2 years ago and nothing has changed my attitude since. Anyone who "experiences" it (Java) sees this. So if someone is arguing against Java then they are arguing from a position of ignorance or fear!

Date: Mon Oct 20 08:05:43 PDT 1997

Java programs are faster to develop and easier to maintain. Nothing is more important to me as a developer. When Microsoft tries to make my job harder, I become even more determined to use pure Java.

Date: Wed Oct 15 17:54:39 PDT 1997

MS has a monopoly in the desktop os. The company should be broken up into 1- OS systems 2-other software

Date: Wed Oct 15 18:14:31 PDT 1997

My God!!! Who allowed 11.2 (b) to be included in your contract??!! Shoot the SOB Lawyer NOW!! Then plan a long seige for a strategy, because no judge in his right mind is going to preempt 11.2 (b).

Date: Wed Oct 15 18:07:17 PDT 1997

I would hope Java is given the ability to fullfill its vision as both a language and more if it can measure up to its promise of being more than just a programming language and also become a platform that will be universal in its understanding.

Date: Wed Oct 15 17:28:38 PDT 1997

Neither Microsoft nor any other company should have the right to alter the philosophy of Java. Sun, as the holder of the trademark can and should control all of the business and legal aspects of Java irrespective any penny the company ends up making. On the other hand, the Java technology and specification should NEVER be controlled by companies like Microsoft, known for pirating other people's technologies. I believe Sun can even- handedly deliver the promise of "write once, run anywhere" without necessarily sabotaging the other people's businesses and/or technologies.

Date: Wed Oct 15 16:56:12 PDT 1997

Sun took the right decision.

Date: Wed Oct 15 15:24:42 PDT 1997

It would be nice if Microsoft could for once work with another technology rather than trying to rework it to suit their needs. We've already seen the botched job they did on the extensions & implementation of TCP/IP

Date: Wed Oct 15 16:25:50 PDT 1997

Cross-platform deployment (UNIX,MAC,PC) is the most crucial feature of Java for our particular application.

Date: Wed Oct 15 16:13:21 PDT 1997

Java and Sun need Microsoft more than Microsoft needs Java. Let's face it, MS's interest in Java is purely a gesture towards Java's media popularity, and by bickering over your contract Sun is only giving MS reason to sever the relationship. Further, I think Java is really attractive to programmers who don't mind learning new tricks, but I can't tell you how many job applicants I've interviewed who are "teaching themselves Java" on the side . . . but what are they teaching themselves? Dopey animated applets that overburden P133 machines with 16 megs of Ram. Hell, I can't get java applets shipped with Netscape Enterprise server software to run properly on my SGI O2. How can I deploy them on the corporate intranets I build? How long would I keep my contracts if some poor soul in a consumer affairs department was stuck on the phone waiting for Java applets to load on their PC? But my boss is a big Sun and Solaris fan, so we tinker with Java to keep him amused and so we can say to a client "Sure we can program in Java," and then we talk some sense into them once we land the contract. And the best way to do that is to take them through Sun's site and say "Now this is what your customer sees if we use Java . . ."

Date: Wed Oct 15 17:05:38 PDT 1997

Microsoft fighting back in this suit against them is extremely stupid. They broke a contract they agreed to and they should be willing to pay the price. If you were to purchase their (dumb) operating system and install it, you've agreed to their contract. However, if you gave a copy of it to a friend, how quick do you think they would have you for software piracy? It'd be an open and shut case and nothing more. However if they break your contract in some way it becomes legal or so it seems it might end that way. I certainly hope not though because if Microsoft can break the rules there is no stopping the evil empire from growing into the evil universe. I pray to God that Sun wins the suit.

Date: Wed Oct 15 16:44:27 PDT 1997

The people want this over with and standards set and followed. It's not about what "we the people" want anymore, it's about the money. What a great gesture it would be on "their" part. To put aside the "ego wars" and let the masses start to really put the web to work. Lee A. Miller

Date: Wed Oct 15 15:55:40 PDT 1997

Why all this bickering?, no one will benefit from it. Lets get down to basics, and get the job done.OK?

Date: Wed Oct 15 14:31:47 PDT 1997

Jave should be submitted as an international standard, in order that it is not hijacked by companies with differing ideas as to what Java is and how it should be implemented, as happens now. Until Java becomes a non- proprietry standard a lot of it's future potential may not be realised, if it does not fit in with Sun's mission statement. Microsoft may be wrong in it's view on Java, but what about the next company to try and move Java in a different direction? Defining a Standard would allow the industry more freedom to unlock the potential of Jave both as a platform independent code base, and as an integrated part of future distributed applications.

Date: Wed Oct 15 14:09:36 PDT 1997

We appreciate if you let us know what excatly is the problem in the JVM implementation of Microsoft

Date: Wed Oct 15 12:22:24 PDT 1997

Sun, of all groups, should learn to word questions like #3 better. Shouldn't the question be: Should Sun turn the Java [language] over to a standards body? And question #11 is a little ambiguous. Java is like ice cream. Once you take a bite, you're hooked. Does Bill Gates think he can stop ice cream? Go, Java, Go.

Date: Wed Oct 15 12:22:20 PDT 1997

Microsoft continues to push the Windows platform at the expense of open standards. If all the work done to create an open system environment is to mean anything, then the line has to be drawn. This is a good time to do it.

Date: Wed Oct 15 12:40:34 PDT 1997

I think you should let the programmers who use Java,decide Java's standards.

Date: Wed Oct 15 12:50:58 PDT 1997

Sun's lawsuit is unavoidable. Microsoft have broken the contract they signed and showed that they have no respect for customers, competitors or standards. Microsoft is too big and have too much control over future directions of the desktop to be acting in such a imature and irresponsible way.

Date: Wed Oct 15 11:27:26 PDT 1997

MicroSoft will win by default. They will claim lackof understanding, apologize and remove the JAVA branding. Then they will sell hard on what they already have complete with the MicroSoft bias. The end result will be determined by the market. If SUN has enough momentum, MicroSoft will have to join the crowd or not have a salable write once, run anywhere product. If MicroSoft prevails by saturating the market with a "free" version of their protable code concept, SUN will have to find another base for their long term software market strategy.

Date: Wed Oct 15 12:00:12 PDT 1997

I never did like Bill Gates' attitude toward business & most especially toward competition. Until the wider use of the internet most people that did use Microsoft products believed what they would be told when there was a problem with a product. That was " our product is fine, it must be your hardware". That goes back to the days of CP/M. Many people, the most notable was Gary Kindell of Digital Research who would write many patches for Microsoft Basic just to be a good guy to DR customers and the betterment of the computer industry. I honestly give more credit to the evolution of the computer industry to guys & gal like Gary then I do anyone else because of his most positive attitude toward the customers and the computer industry as a whole. Yet they have never gotten the honest recognition that they really do deserve. Bill Gates sure did as did he get the monetary rewards. Anyone that is familiar with CP/M and Unix can easily see where MS DOS & Windows can from. If he isn't stopped he will be the down fall of several creative people and that will inturn hurt the industry. The only Microsoft product that I presently use is Windows 95. I do not have any other choice because of the software that I use isn't available for Unix or if it is, it much to costly for me. All of my family, friends and business associates are well aware of my feelings towards Gatesland. I wish he would have taken the trip to Heavens Gate. Jim Farley

Date: Wed Oct 15 12:03:05 PDT 1997

think of java as the "rising sun". think of microsoft as "standard oil." gentlemen, change your oil!!!

Date: Wed Oct 15 09:33:54 PDT 1997

All technical issues aside, suing Microsoft was a bad idea for Sun. Microsoft has a fantastic reputation with the American public; according to the Mercury News, it's the most admired corporation in the U.S. Suing Microsoft will generate a lot of bad feelings for Java among this segment of the population. Silicon Valley folks have lived in the shadow of the Microsoft behemoth long enough to be cynical about its intentions; it's easy to forget that much of the rest of the nation regards Microsoft's work as fundamentally good.

Date: Wed Oct 15 09:26:07 PDT 1997

In regards to Question 3, I believe that Microsoft is going to cause much confusion in the minds of Java Developers that is going to cause them to throw up their hands in disgust. this is going to make them wait until the dust settles. In regards to question 7, I believe that, as Sun has led the language, it it is a "write once, run anywhere" language. With Microsoft in the middle and their 'tweaks', if their position is allowed to stand as is, this will not be true. I believe that Microsoft can not tolerate this type of competition to their OS and products. In regards to Question 6, I believe that Microsoft will go to any length to drag this out in the courts at great expense to themselves and Sun (with Sun being the loser in this case) and that Microsoft is going to try and continue doing whatever Microsoft wants to do. Unless Sun obtains some sort of legal injunction to get them to stop. Regards, Gregory Hicks

Date: Wed Oct 15 09:40:00 PDT 1997

We all understand that Microsoft's thought is if we can't produce a clone of the competitors product, then we will buy them. Since you are on the list with the Netscape Chair, Intuit, and a small few other companies who have put other things first. You are a threat to Microsoft. That is the primary reason why they have not been able to produce a "Stable" program out of their own shop, they have to purchase, steal(aquire) others to keep the life they have become acusstomed to having. The major differance between Microsoft and most other major companies, is they just don't care, and they think the public will buy their product regardless. Check the history of the there product, and consumer satisfaction. CII

Date: Wed Oct 15 10:15:31 PDT 1997

Java is the best thing that has happened to the computer industry. I admire Suns push to keep Java a platform INDEPENDANT language. Microsoft has a "stay with Microsoft" philosophy that,allthough quite understandable, has become a nuisance. Even with their browser, Microsoft Explorer, you don't have the option of starting with a blank page. And untill you find a website that you like to have your browser "opening" to, you are left with the default location which is Microsofts web site, which takes forever to load(last I saw) The option being to enter an invalid http adress and have the browser error out thus forcing a blank page. Sheesh, like i said, what a nuisance. NOW, Microsoft has taken it's "stay with us" philosophy and pushed it into a world where propriety based sytems are on their way out...not in...that is the world of Java. This is more than a nuisance, it's an outrage. To the people at Sun I say "Keep up the fight!". Hopefully one day we will be free of Bill Gates stranglehold. Sincerely Steve Paesani

Date: Wed Oct 15 09:28:15 PDT 1997

One of the largest weaknesses of Java is every browser (what the public and much of management perceives as the primary place to deploy Java app(let)s) is so much different in the type and quality of support for Java. It is very difficult to develop anything but trivial tools in Java using the Sun JDK appletviewer and then run them in a non Sun browser. It would be great if the compliance tests were stringent enough to assess quality of VM implementations and the core libraries, but even better would be easy ways for developers and users to tell what level of compliance their browser or VM truly is. Unless you can look at a VM and see that it is 100% compliant, you should expect stuff NOT to work properly. Furthermore, there probably are any truly 100% compliant VM's in the industry right now.

Date: Wed Oct 15 10:28:40 PDT 1997

We are using applications that have Java interfaces as well as their native Windows or MAC interfaces.

Date: Wed Oct 15 09:40:27 PDT 1997

We face the crossroad. That's where MS shows its real intentions (and fears) about Java. They fear the new paradigm introduced by Java. Computer industry, phase 1: dominate through the hardware Computer industry, phase 2: dominate through the OS Computer industry, phase 3: dominate through applications. Java is the cornerstone of this new phase. It's not surprising that the champ of phase 2 is trying to kill Java. But remember, being a T-Rex is not enough to survive ... Sun: take care of Java, have it reaching the standard status (ISO Java spec) and developpers will do the rest.

Date: Wed Oct 15 10:48:02 PDT 1997

Was a Lawsuit really needed? Handing Java standardization over to an international standards group would benefit everyone if Microsoft would agree to abide by it. If Microsoft won't play along, the cross-platfrom concept will be destroyed.

Date: Wed Oct 15 09:48:40 PDT 1997

Putting the whole Java movement aside, there are certain business realities. Microsoft, is not going to adopt a technology that will damage its current OS market position. As much as I agree with Sun, I do realize what Microsoft is doing. Java is indeed a good thing; however, some sort of compromise must be reached for its success. Sun cannot simply forget to invite MicroSoft to the dinner. When a compromise is reached ( not if, but when ) I can only cross my fingers and hope that Sun preserves the "write, once and run anywhere" promise.

Date: Wed Oct 15 09:50:45 PDT 1997

This is kind of like the German purity law in effect since the 1400's. You can brew what you like, but you can't sell it as beer unless it is beer. Microsoft can sell whatever software they like, but they can't call it Java unless it is Java.

Date: Wed Oct 15 10:46:16 PDT 1997

God save Java.

Date: Wed Oct 15 10:21:18 PDT 1997

Although I answered that the lawsuit will be extremely good for Java, that is only if Sun wins, which I sincerely hope. It is way overdue to break the unhealthy monopoly situation that Microsoft is in, and the only threat to that in recent history is Java. No wonder Microsoft is scared about it! It's also very reassuring that it's totally obvious that the world wants to get out of the death grip of Microsoft. People want platform independent programming and the freedom of choosing vendors when purchasing software. It's very apparent that Microsoft has no friends in the industry. The mishappening at the developers conference in Paris when Microsoft got booed out and almost all the people left the room when MS started to bash Java, clearly shows that we are all tired of the ignorance and big brother mentality of Microsoft. The outcome of the lawsuit may be the most important thing that has ever happened in the history of computers. I sincerely, and wholeheartedly hope that for once, superior technology will show to be stronger than marketing hype. Henrik Martin

Date: Wed Oct 15 08:55:58 PDT 1997

Microsoft always finds a way to screw up what could be a good thing for everyone else. In the long run java threatens to reduce the number of products by microsoft.

Date: Wed Oct 15 08:26:16 PDT 1997

We will be developing with Java within the next year because of Java's write, once run anywhere promise. Our take on the whole Sun/Microsoft thing is that Microsoft is simply scared of Java and Sun. We think that in 5-10 years a large portion of all software will be written in Java, and this would allow everyone to pick there favorite OS to run applications on. I personaly would love to see our office crawling with sun workstations. We could then work and not worry about the Microsoft daily crash syndrome. Steve Curry Unibuilt Technology, Inc.

Date: Wed Oct 15 09:03:49 PDT 1997

I hope that the Java fans will stay to the originale SUN-Java and not to Microsoft's cutten clone (Clown).

Date: Wed Oct 15 07:55:32 PDT 1997

Nobody's hat is white, here.

Date: Wed Oct 15 07:29:09 PDT 1997

I think Sun should hand Java over to the standards board, but not until JavaSoft matures the language to a point that it integrates more of the fundamental features that are not yet available.

Date: Wed Oct 15 07:27:59 PDT 1997

What goes around comes around. MS has done this very thing to others. Why wouldnt they expect it to come back to them. Face it this is about money and control of the market. My thought is these large companies should have to purchase a license from the small comnpanies instead of buying them out. This alone would make for greater competition. dray

Date: Wed Oct 15 06:31:54 PDT 1997

The portable core language with the portable core GUI library plus the 3rd party java beans and code bodes well for Java. The porting lab sponsered by IBM and Sun and Netscape (?) is very important. One weakness in Java is the VM ports to non windows platforms. If these are stable, and the browsers on these platforms support Java, then the developers can proceed to create more Java tools and applications.

Date: Wed Oct 15 07:31:42 PDT 1997

Only time will tell whether the lawsuit has any effect on Java. I believe Microsoft is trying to undermine Java as anything other than a programming language, and one that they want to co-opt at that. They do not believe in true open systems or the desire, of their customers, to be able to use systems other than WinTel. I believe Sun is trying to make a point with this lawsuit. That point being that Microsoft alone, out of all the other companies that have licensed Java, has removed pieces and added pieces that are specific to their environment. Sun, as the holder of Java, is saying "No" and "don't anyone else try this, either." Other company's products may not been 100% Pure Java, yet, but they are working within the guidelines of their licenses. The opinions expressed here are my own and do not represent any other individual, group of individuals, or company.

Date: Wed Oct 15 07:29:45 PDT 1997

This suit needs to be settled quickly. Even in a battle of attrition in which Sun wins the suit, Java and Java developers will lose and Microsoft will win. Gates has 2 ways to win - either in a quick settlement in his favor, or if a prolonged battle takes place. Prolonging the battle only lets Microsoft get more entrenched. Sun is correct in assuming this is a war. Strike quick and with everything you've got, for the alternative is total defeat. May the force be with you....

Date: Wed Oct 15 06:35:21 PDT 1997

You fell into Microsoft's have to be always on the alert when anything concerns Bill Gate's & Microsoft!

Date: Wed Oct 15 06:03:01 PDT 1997

For the forseeable future, because of our installed base of Windows 3.1 machines, JAVA will not be the language of choice except as a Server Side piece of software.

Date: Wed Oct 15 06:19:14 PDT 1997

All MS has to do is make some "look and feel" changes to java and roll it's own variety. Then the lawsuit works to differentiate their own language as "different" from Java. Particullarly attractive to general users would be to eliminate the "case sensitivity" of the language and divorce the language from any concept of directory heirarchies.

Date: Wed Oct 15 04:41:24 PDT 1997

Sun got greedy, and now your crying because someone is more greedy than you are? Letting ISO control Java would have forced Microsoft to behave or have it's VM rejected. Also a certification process for all VM's would have insured "write once run anywhere". Now it is hiena VS. LION. It is a real shame too, because Java was REALLY cool.

Date: Wed Oct 15 04:39:32 PDT 1997

Java is dead. Microsoft has already killed it, but it was moribund when it became clear that the JDKs for Macintosh were not similar to the JDKs for Windows in important ways, despite claims to the contrary by Sun engineers. Also, Patrick Daughton's book spoiled Java for me by revealing the death march sweatshop it came out of -- IMHO, nothing good comes out of that culture. Java is an albatross Sun hung around its own neck. A mirage. Pie in the sky. The unattainable.

Date: Wed Oct 15 05:12:40 PDT 1997

go for it. Java is the best technology in the last 10 years.

Date: Wed Oct 15 04:46:44 PDT 1997

For what we are doing right now, JavaScript 1.2 and server side programs are working. It is my desire that things clear up so that we can use Java for all our development tasks.

Date: Wed Oct 15 03:58:06 PDT 1997

Don't let to move Java to "write once, debug everywhere".

Date: Wed Oct 22 13:26:03 PDT 1997

I just wish the storm would settle so we can all get back to work and know which way we are heading. I would prefer to keep Java with the ideal of "Write-Once Run Everywhere" but I like Java for it's other attributes (Threads, Garbage collection and Network friendly) more.

Date: Wed Oct 22 13:40:42 PDT 1997

Make it 100% compliant or don't try to call it JAVA! And is morgan stanley, so MicroSoft should call their classes

Date: Wed Oct 22 15:06:55 PDT 1997

I wonder how the Java license compares to the license used for those who put "made for Windows" stickers on their products? Sun has done a good job selling a VM and giving away the tools to develop for it. Now if Microsoft could just publish the API for its Windows "VM" If Gates doesn't like Java, he can use ActiveX all he wants. Look at the Standards, IP, PERL, etc. Nobody has a financial reason to keep these guys portable, extensable, secure, etc. Java should stay owned, maybe by a consortium than by Sun only. And keep the tools free and publish the API info for all.

Date: Wed Oct 22 15:23:48 PDT 1997

Playing footsie with the devil is risky. Just pull Microsoft's license and let third party folks develop the Windows JVMs. (Or you should do it, a Sun JVM for Windows platforms would be well respected. Better though, to let third parties do it to prevent muddying the waters any more than they already are.) Also, try to expedite your suit, as stubborn as BG is he'll probably just pay the fine and take the loss until it is too late. You guys should get some of that pie before DOJ eats it all. Not because you need it, but because the satisfaction would be so sweet. Time to go down to the local tavern and celebrate these wonderful developments in the computing community. No Bud-light tonight, a round of Bass for all. Good luck, Sun. John Horn Unix Systems Administrator City of Tucson, Tucson Arizona

Date: Wed Oct 22 16:35:35 PDT 1997

Why not Java International along the lines of SPARC International? PAS approval for such an org would be a slam-dunk.

Date: Wed Oct 22 17:53:59 PDT 1997

The real reasons Sun sued Microsoft now are so Sun does not have to give any further updates to Micrsoft. This will leave Microsoft with three choices: 1) get left behind as the rest of the Java world reaps the benifits of Hotspot and other upcoming improvements. 2) try to clean room their own virtual machine technology and get everyone to support it. 3) get with the program!!

Date: Wed Oct 22 21:08:06 PDT 1997

If Java is just another programming language, why is Microsoft even bothering with it? Don't they have enough programming languages to keep them busy?

Date: Thu Oct 23 05:37:19 PDT 1997

Never relinquish control over the Java standard and never weaken you position on licensee compliance. Most of us in the high tech industry/community are relying on you to come through on all the promises of Java.

Date: Thu Oct 23 06:34:10 PDT 1997

Many companies are still using Windows 3, and many other companies are having _huge_ problems with Win95 and NT 4. Why has Sun abandoned WABI? Why hasn't Sun released a "Personal Solaris" to take advantage of this situation? I'd like to see Sun work with Compaq (e.g.) to offer end-users a _stable_ OS as an alternative to MS Windows.

Date: Thu Oct 23 07:42:17 PDT 1997

Handing off Java to an independent standards organization in itself would be a good move, were it not that most organizations of this type tend to end up in endless discussions. This would slow doen Java development enormously, and that's why I think Sun should - at the present - keep control over Java. Microsoft IMHO does in fact try to tailor Java to their needs without regard for the needs of others (users, platforms, vendors, etc). This would not be much of a problem in any other language, but since one of the stated goals for Java is platform-independence, it violates the principles of VM-development. And since MS already has more than enough languages to tinker with (VBScript, VBA, etc) they should keep Java clean. Developers who wish to take advantage of Win32-specific features should use another language to access those features. Of course they're free to develop extensions to the Java implementation for Win32-platforms, but they should be marketed as such: optional extensions to the regular Java environment. Not `improvements to Java'. My 0.01 eurocents...

Date: Thu Oct 23 08:17:50 PDT 1997

Time is of the essence, here. Microsoft should not be allowed to drag this for any length of time. In fact, this suit should be "piggy-backed" on top of the anti-trust suit brought against M$ to show to what lengths M$ will go to preserve and enhance its monopoly -- if Java were to stay standardized and kept improving, the WORA promise would really make Windows less important (critical?), which would not make M$ happy. And why can they claim that they need to prevent "balkanisation" of M$ Windows (re. MSIE vs. other browsers) while trying to split and balkanize Java? How can standardization be good for Windows and not for Java? Smells like double standards to me.

Date: Thu Oct 23 11:26:41 PDT 1997

Give Timothy McVeigh a Ryder truck and a map to Redmond.

Date: Thu Oct 23 18:35:33 PDT 1997

go get ms.

Date: Thu Oct 23 19:19:13 PDT 1997

A really good sign is IBM's commitment to Java. That may be enough to really make it go over.

Date: Thu Oct 23 21:04:42 PDT 1997

Kick Microsoft's butt.

Date: Thu Oct 23 22:35:34 PDT 1997

ms were playing a dirty game on java. I think Sun should preserve the owner ship of java. Look at the fate of ada and c++. If none own it, it is going to be torn apart. Specially, java is still have long way to go and I don't want to see the naughty boy ms mess around with java and then take over the control and the twist it anyway they want. Applause, Sun MicroSystem, may JUSTICE with you.

Date: Fri Oct 24 03:52:58 PDT 1997

Every effort should be taken to preserve Java main feature - portability.

Date: Fri Oct 24 05:29:43 PDT 1997

I think the key to this is not Microsoft's exclusion of RMI and NMI classes, but rather its subterfuge in the java libs. Microsoft could have easily developed a parallel class lib (ala sunw) to address efficiency/UI issues

Date: Fri Oct 24 07:05:36 PDT 1997

I love Java. We must do what we can to save it from Gates and anyone else who would destroy it's potential for universal application.

Date: Fri Oct 24 07:57:51 PDT 1997

The lawsuit is pretty clear cut. Microsoft changed java.* packages which is clearly forbidden in their contract. If Microsoft wanted to extend the language, they should have done so with microsoft.* packages.

Date: Fri Oct 24 12:55:18 PDT 1997

Please don't let Microsoft splinter Java's development, keep it 100% cross-platformable, Microsoft has already said they intend to halt Java for that same reason, don't knuckle under!

Date: Fri Oct 24 13:12:16 PDT 1997

Recently, Mark Murray, a spokesman in the Microsoft legal department, had this to say about the Windows 95 bundling issue. "We’ve always said computer manufacturers need to ship our products in their entirety, not pick and choose between functions. The reason that’s so important is that consumers want to know that Windows will work exactly the same way no matter what brand of computer they buy. We cannot have different manufacturers offering different flavors of Windows." O.K., Mike, can you take it as well as you give it? Sun is saying the same thing to Microsoft... "We’ve always said Java licensees need to ship Java in its entirety, not pick and choose between functions. The reason that’s so important is that consumers want to know that Java will work exactly the same way no matter what operating system they buy. We cannot have different licensees offering different flavors of Java."

Date: Fri Oct 24 17:23:56 PDT 1997

in my opinion This law suit is an Excellent Move.. perhaps a necssary one in the face of Microsoft's blatant hegemony. however, my sheer ethusiasm and love (for your Sun's OS and SPARC architecture )is not enough to prevent me from buying into the company I truly dispise ... namely Microsoft... as I ( and many countless others, I am sure ) have no affordable alternative from Sun... Give me an alternative soon, STOP me from sponsoring WINTEL... Please ...passs this on to Scott McNealy, Sun 's CEO Abe Nebuchadnezzar ( student ) 721 Emerald Lake Dr #101, VA Beach, VA 23455

Date: Fri Oct 24 19:35:50 PDT 1997

Java is an important piece of technology for two reasons. 1) It pushes the frontiers of open network computing. 2) It provides competitive pressure which is needed to keep the information technology marketplace vibrant. It would be unfortunate indeed if Microsoft were allowed to destroy Java by using its dominant position in low-end computing to undermine one of Java's key concepts, the "write once, run anywhere" capability.

Date: Fri Oct 24 21:32:53 PDT 1997

I hope the 100% Java standard will not be impacted by MicroSofts intentions. I hope the attempts by MicroSoft will not split the Java language in several directions and feel it is of the utmost importance for cross platform development that MicroSoft is put back in it's place and Sun is able to develop the language into a standard. Raymond Eijeriks

Date: Fri Oct 24 23:49:45 PDT 1997

Actually, what the whole lawsuit about is that Microsoft should stop abuse Java, just like he abuse HTML standard.

Date: Sat Oct 25 12:04:28 PDT 1997

Lets nuke Bill Gates :)

Date: Sat Oct 25 12:16:57 PDT 1997

The big thief from Redmond is at it again.It's funny that they are the ones with the strongest warning about misuse of their software, but are sued more than any other company for the theft of software, or code. I don't think Microthief will do anything to change Java, other than trying to control it, as they did with browsers. They lost out in not making their browser compatible with the rest of the world. If they were so great they would have written better software to start with, such as the bugs that are still in DOS 3.02, way back when. Same problems with Win 3.1, Win95, Win/NT, etc.. It's their drive to control, just an extension of Bill's warped personality, since he first stole DOS back in the late Seventies when I was programing Imsi 8080's in Basic, and later C. He always has bought his position in the PC market. His first real war was with WordPerfect, and has escalated to the rest of the players of the PC world. Someday when the game will finally be won with well written software, not the crap he came out with to replace a decent disk compression program, if there are any players left, he won't have a chance. Hay!!! Have a nice DAY!! Robert L. Gifford no fan of Bill's

Date: Sat Oct 25 12:58:34 PDT 1997

RMI is part of the Java licensing. If MS doesn't ship it, then they violate their licensing agreement with Sun and should in fact not be allowed to distribute a crippled version of the Java platform. Java should be controlled by a standards organization so it does not become a marketing pawn for any one company with questionable motives. Not just Microsoft but even someday Sun itself.

Date: Sat Oct 25 13:24:26 PDT 1997

Sun doesn't need Microsoft to make Java ubiquitous. All the BS going on in the media that Sun needs Microsoft is just crap in my opinion. As long as Sun sticks with it's goals and delivers, nothing can stop Java. Waiting for JavaStation. Go SUN!!

Date: Sat Oct 25 16:39:13 PDT 1997

Go Java! Death to Microsoft!

Date: Sun Oct 26 05:39:34 PST 1997

We will probably stop writing 100 percent pure java programs amd switch to Active X

Date: Sun Oct 26 08:01:34 PST 1997

Microsoft does not seem to understand that the content of the agreement is not merely the written text, but also the intentions of the parties at the time the agreement was entered into. Sun's intentions have been crystal clear as expressed in the "whereas" preamble, and Microsoft has obviously been unfaithful to Sun's intentions and hence to the agreement in law.

Date: Sun Oct 26 09:25:05 PST 1997

Micro$shit f... it up again!!!

Date: Sun Oct 26 10:32:48 PST 1997

I program in Basic, Extra Basic, Visual Basic, and Aspect (Procomm's scripting language). I have been watching the industry for over a year now and recently made my decision to devote the next 2 years of my life to become a Java Developer. I sincerely hope Sun and the industry aggressively fights off outside forces that can fragment the language into different platform dependant languages. It all boils down to what the court decides and, hopefully, Sun will take preventitive measures to help them in their judgement.

Date: Sun Oct 26 10:43:50 PST 1997

As a developer, I'm tired of hearing Microsfoft's constant 'latest greatest excuse' for developing their own propietary technologies that, incidentally, only run on Windows. Their strategy is clear, they are against open standards and want to turn every technology (including html and the internet streaming protocols) into something that NEEDS win32 or other ms-blessed operating systems. I think that with the latest DOJ action against MS on the browser market, mr Gates and ms Ballmer will begin to realize that they cannot set the rules of the whole software industry.

Date: Sun Oct 26 12:11:09 PST 1997

Quite honestly why don't they both come to a settlement and share the technology between all who seek to make applications for the end user and share the profits between all of them then everybody will get the benefits because bickering does harm to every one in the long run

Date: Sun Oct 26 14:59:06 PST 1997

It's seems everyone's Microsoft complaints are bubbling to the surface. There's safety in numbers.

Date: Sun Oct 26 16:38:52 PST 1997

One thing this law suite accomplished is that its bringing Java more in the forefront. It brings up many questions in the developement of this platform. Currently I'm happy with having SUN being the caretaker, but I also feel that it should eventually become part of the ISO. Java is still young, and being under one company's control helps speed the growth of the platform. What Microsoft has done only demostrates their desire to control the direction of the computer industry. They should cooporate in the the Java development instead of twisting contractual words to their benifit. I feel that many companies should divorce themselves from Microsoft as much as possible; noone should be tied to one software platform for noone knows what tommorrow will bring. My question is what keeps others from developing a JVM that runs on Windows-xx?

Date: Sun Oct 26 16:43:23 PST 1997

I work for a help desk!. The idea behind Java is well-centered. I currently support WIN95, WINNT, OS/2, AIX, etc. If There were a JavaOS, this certainly would make my job easier. Net standards like POSIX and JAVA allow me to look into the future and see what things can be like. With MS it's our way or no way.

Date: Sun Oct 26 16:52:36 PST 1997

As a former Sun customer, my experience in the "Anti-Microsoft" war has been that Sun Micro is not the knight in shining armor certain developers seem to claim. The sole purpose for Java is to encourage "network computing" for the purposes of selling Sun's servers. They want everyone to be using there systems just as MS wants everyone to use Windows. From the customer's perspective, I'm happier dealing with MS than I ever was with Sun. Regardless, do we really need yet another programming language? Especially one that runs using bytecode? Oh, I forgot. If you run Java(tm) apps on JavaOS(tm) on a Javastation(tm) its fast enough. Said products you have to buy from Sun... How is this an open system?

Date: Sun Oct 26 19:20:53 PST 1997

Personally, I think this is Microsoft to a tee - redefining darkness as a standard because they can't make good lightbulbs. If you can't play by the rules, then don't play. Go Sun.

Date: Sun Oct 26 20:16:38 PST 1997

Protect Java the language by putting in the hands of a industry group to oversee. Then Scott and Bill can duke it out over platforms all they want. Also much of Java is based on Smalltalk(ST) which started life with a it own widgets and "look and feel" like java. But it became a problem when users of ST applications complained of having to get used to another "look and feel" on same machine, so ST move to native widgets for each platform. I feel Java will need to do the same thing. Personally I would like to see Java language be spec'd as a core language that all java VM's and JITS had to support. Then companies like MS could superset the core with additional native features if they like. Programmers can choose to marry themselve to a particular platform or VM/JIT fully aware they are platform specific. Of course the core Java should have exception handling to gracefully handle if someone tried to use a platform specific java app on the wrong platform. Isn't this like the original K&R C design where the standard library was implied, but not really part of the language. Later on the ANSI decided to make it part of the official language. Also I've used a lot of C compilers and everyone had platform specific extensions. As a programmer it was my option to use or avoid those functions.

Date: Sun Oct 26 20:38:28 PST 1997

Microsoft's goal is "control or destroy". And that's exactly what they are trying to do with MS-SDK 2.0 : they changed the Java implementation to fit Win32 (or should it be Lose32?), and if it works, fine they'd keep it, and if not well they hope Java dies because of it! Microsoft had no right of doing this for a great number of resons, somehow related : 1. breach of contract; 2. Sun owns Java, its not open and most of all MS doesn't own it; 3. the Java community won't allow it, ie they won't allow the WORA vision to be side-tracked. The sad part is that whatever the outcome is, Microsoft will hardly be affected, financially at least.

Date: Sun Oct 26 22:22:35 PST 1997

Microsoft is only doing what any other company would do to stay in control. What Sun does now is in question. Perhaps Sun should put themselves in Microsoft's shoes and see where it leads them. What Microsoft is doing is not entirely right but they are doing it because basically, it is survival of the fittest. Only time will tell.

Date: Mon Oct 27 00:05:54 PST 1997

I think it was a mistake to sell the contract for Java to Microsoft. Java was the edge needed to keep the Netscape browser alive and competitive. Microsoft having Java evened the playing field, and has allowed Microsoft to gain faster than they would have in the Internet market place.

Date: Mon Oct 27 04:27:52 PST 1997

Let Sun hand over Java as soon as possible to the standards-bodies. Microsoft will continue to battle Sun about Java as long as Sun will keep Java for itself. Nobody argues anymore about TCP/IP protocols or SMTP/POP3 protocols and Microsoft doesn't have an uncompatible MS-version of these protocols. Java will only survive if it becomes a true open standard.

Date: Mon Oct 27 05:19:10 PST 1997

Hope, Sun wins this one!

Date: Mon Oct 27 05:24:39 PST 1997

Both sides have acted childish, but I think it is the Microsoft arrogance to do what they please that bothers me more than anything else.

Date: Mon Oct 27 05:37:10 PST 1997

The market still needs more Java based alternatives to the Microsoft apps. We need one or more decent office solutions, editors, spreadsheets, graphics tools. We need everything! Above all though, we need SPEED! Java must be made to run fast if it is to survive. I wish Sun all the best in it's attempts to kill off Microsoft, the company that has done more than any other to ruin our industry.

Date: Mon Oct 27 05:44:13 PST 1997

I'd like to see MS licence its LATEST version of MFC to third parties ( particularly Borland ), and see how they react when people start playing with it. Actually I would really like to see that! That way someone could make MFC Object Oriented!

Date: Mon Oct 27 05:57:02 PST 1997

MS should quit trying to set standards. They are VERY bad at defining standards that don't need the callback of windows. All the standards they created are poor.

Date: Mon Oct 27 06:42:42 PST 1997

I Know this is a Sun sponsored survey, therefore I am not surprised that you are presenting comments that are the same as Sun's. I personally think that Sun and MS should both be treated like "SPOILED LITTLE BRATS" and have their "Fannies" SPANKED. SHAME ! SHAME ! SHAME ! on both of you. Sun is by far the "BIGGEST OFFENDER" in this dispute. But I expect this comment to go into "FILE 13" (The Waste Basket).

Date: Mon Oct 27 07:10:20 PST 1997

My only comment is .... Every head on this planet should boycot Microsoft products, as long as they have an head.

Date: Mon Oct 27 07:57:03 PST 1997

I think we should start to set our own industry standard. Don't let it fall into the hand of big players. We, the developers should decide whom to side. If they don't win this time, nobody will dare to challenge Microsoft in the future. In the long run, Microsoft will dominates every thing and maybe Bill Gates will be the King of the world and starts charging everyone for using MS's standard and technologies. So lets hope the rebellion forces WIN!!!

Date: Mon Oct 27 08:07:16 PST 1997

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Microsoft is just as corrupt as it is powerful. This shows the despotic nature of its CEO as every such organization is a reflection of its leader. Part of any settlement with Microsoft should demand that Gates step down forever and turn the helm of Microsoft over to an actual human being.

Date: Mon Oct 27 09:23:12 PST 1997

Microsoft should be stopped because they are preveinting new good technologies from been developed/used just because these technologies are not good for their bussines. That is a monopoly and that affects us all.

Date: Mon Oct 27 09:23:57 PST 1997

Inetrnet Explorer 4.0 is is their Frontpage 98. their products are not friendly to use So don't ever use them...

Date: Mon Oct 27 09:50:30 PST 1997

Once again Bill plays dirty by Changing Java so that only people using his OSes can use it.

Date: Mon Oct 27 10:07:59 PST 1997

If you want JAVA to be truly portable, try to get one solid release together completely and make it a standard. Rushing an incomplete or volatile product only serves to allow others to better the premise and take the marketplace. Oh yeah, another idea. Have your developers create a trojan that does rm -rf / then a nice Linux install on a M$ box. That would solve your trouble with Billy instantly.

Date: Mon Oct 27 10:10:59 PST 1997

I read a previous comment that says that Sun is going the way of Apple. I hope not. This is our last bastion of hope that the Microsofties won't rule the world. Although that sounds paranoid, it is something that is starting to scare me. In this case, it might end up being a case of Microsoft eats up another company by consuming it through another lawsuit. The major problem is not the industry, or the code itself. The problem is that people will buy Microsoft regardless of who is better. The computer industry is saturated with morons, namely the sales reps who are pushing the expensive and overdone Microsoft applications at the consumer because they know that the name sells it all.

Date: Mon Oct 27 10:35:04 PST 1997

Java is an effort of standardization itself. It was and is a good idea. Any other language would do the same, so those from Microsoft could (if they wanted) come up with a similar language and push it forward. But they want to make money, and they have never been too creative before so that's why they take this position, because they are behind and very greedy so they have few if any scruples and act as if they own everything.

Date: Mon Oct 27 10:36:14 PST 1997

I'm tired of Microsoft attempting to force everyone to use their implementation of products. They no longer focus on "Best of Breed" but, rather time-to-market and market domination. I believe in open standards-- the diversity is what makes our industry strong. Operating systems and software should work TOGETHER, and Java apps should be able to run ANYWHERE. MS-get over yourself!! We're tired of your world domination scheme. Play nice with everyone. Sun-stand strong. Fight for the principles of freedom and openness in the software industry.

Date: Mon Oct 27 11:18:55 PST 1997

the arrogance of power - with financial resources! Who has ever been fairly critical of the Microsoft products with all their shortcomings, failures, belated upgrades ... You will probably agree that this is competition, but who cares about the users? I want a stable, comfortbale software without glitches. That takes time.

Date: Mon Oct 27 11:23:11 PST 1997

Question 5 is confusing. Is it asking whether Microsoft's VM should be brought into compliance OR that it should already be the reference implementation?

Date: Mon Oct 27 11:24:51 PST 1997

Sun needs a good Java Sales/Marketing team. As Microsoft has demonstrated, it isn't the products, it's the lies told by "loud-mouth" schnooks. Microsoft is being a jerk about not Java-compliant. Obviously Microsoft's motto is "if you can't beat them, make them sue you". IBM and Apple failed. Let's hope Sun can do better. I think Sun will, because the money- control institutions (ie Banks, investors) still have tremendous amount of UNIX applications. Do you think these people want to shift away from this write-once, run-anywhere concept back to write-many, debug-many, run- nowhere concept. Java was holding its own. Sure, there are still many bugs, but it is MUCH better than the silly OS wrote by MSFT called NT and Windows95. Microsoft, the IT devolution leader. Hao

Date: Mon Oct 27 12:14:44 PST 1997

The Sun lawsuit reminds one of the kid who finally stood up to the big bully in the playground, and the the results will probably come out the same: The bully may only get a bloody nose, but his ability to intimidate and control is seriously hampered. -Jimmy Witherspoon

Date: Mon Oct 27 13:03:15 PST 1997

Bill Gates is "swine"... He just wants to get his grubby little hands, on anything that will enhance the "windows" (yeah,right!) OS, and to modify Java just enough so that it would be, exclusively, made for the windows enviroment.

Date: Mon Oct 27 13:12:05 PST 1997

As easy as it would be to bad-mouth Ms I won't. What I find strange is that they(Ms)won't let others rewrite there programs but they(AGAIN Ms)feel that they may do so. It must feel strange to be above and better than others. Ms is WAY out of line and I will not support their actions by NOT buying anymore of their softwear.

Date: Mon Oct 27 13:51:12 PST 1997

Sun should standardize java later, when it is more stable.

Date: Mon Oct 27 13:54:02 PST 1997

Gates is the last person on the planet who should be crying about someone else controlling a standard. Microsoft has consistently ignored widespread standards for networking (TCP/IP), file service (NFS), print service (LPD), window system (X), and even image file formats. When MS stops reinventing the wheel so that they have proprietary control, then maybe I'll listen to Gates.

Date: Mon Oct 27 14:24:16 PST 1997

Microsoft invested in a small company to port "perl" to NT. SUN should have done the same - let another entity developing JVM for W95 and NT. Revoke Microsoft's Java license IMMEDIATELY. "Shrink" Microsoft into "an application developer" for that JVM.

Date: Mon Oct 27 14:54:26 PST 1997

I think Microsoft has a very unsophisticated approach towards Java. When the whole Computing World of today looks towards the Object Technology and its benefits, Microsoft poses to be a hindrance towards this objective. Technology may come and technology may go but todays world will always remember the damage Microsoft has caused to Java!

Date: Mon Oct 27 15:19:58 PST 1997

hope sun wins this case...o

Date: Mon Oct 27 16:47:00 PST 1997

I understand that Java is currently a proprietary system owned by Sun much as Windows is owned by Microsoft and while Microsoft has no need of Java, Java aparently needs Microsoft's cooperation. I think they both need to grow up or Java, no matter how good it may be will whither on the vine and we all lose this valuable tool.

Date: Mon Oct 27 16:52:10 PST 1997

I advocate Java and I believe in it. If it fails - I am going to restore classic sports cars before I support Microsoft

Date: Mon Oct 27 16:53:12 PST 1997

This whole fight is nothing more than a plan by Sun to cut into Microsofts market shares $$$$$$$$$. Face it, it's not about us, it's about MONEY for SUN ! Do you really feel your in a better position than APPLE was ? NOT ! You are going to loose in the long haul, people aren't into your WHINNING for more money. Jeff Croom ps ..... I'm a Netscape Communicator 4.03 Subscriber and also have MSIE 4.

Date: Mon Oct 27 16:59:49 PST 1997


Date: Mon Oct 27 18:22:17 PST 1997

My company developed one of the first Java based Internet Faxing applications. We started in March of '96. Java didn't live up to the promise of write once run everywhere then and still doesn't today. I don't think this action taken by Sun will have any positive effect on the Java language. Microsoft can drop it as quick as it adopoted it and developers won't waste their time on it any more. P.S Question 10 needs one more option: o Been there done that As a contractor, I have to go where the money is. People are not fooled by the hype. Java at this point is just a bunch of hype. Looking back on my experience I wish we had developed our fax application using Microsoft Active Server Pages and pure HTML. I would love to see Java succeed. However, I have decided that if Sun has to resort to legal tactics to make it succeed, then it must be dead already.

Date: Mon Oct 27 18:48:02 PST 1997

No matter what the outcome, it is always the enduser (and the small developers) who will suffer in any dispute between the multi-national computer giants.

Date: Mon Oct 27 18:59:15 PST 1997

I would like to know what IBM'S position is on this dispute. Don't they have variant applications of JAVA written just for their own companies distribution which makes an even greater gap in the position of a universal code which should come from SUN,but with applications from others written with the same as an implimentation, but not as a replacement of the original. Microsoft has stolen other peoples programs in the past, even from other countries. I had correspondence with a animation program developed in Canada which Microsoft quickly snagged and to use in their developement program in use with the Explorer.

Date: Mon Oct 27 19:41:12 PST 1997

Microsoft is wrong on this. They should be forced to perform according to the contract they signed, and fully support the one and only Java standard.

Date: Mon Oct 27 19:43:52 PST 1997

I tend to side with Sun strictly on the basis of what Microsoft is attempting to do with the desktop, that is, make it impossible for anything but Microsoft products to be 100% integrated with the operating system. Microsoft's approach needs to be looked through the lens of "monopolies" that has been applied to many manufacturing industries. If software isn't a manufacturing industry then it should be classified as such. It's unfortunate for all developers everywhere that this has gone to the courts, but then again, when is this country ever going to learn the lesson about being less litigious and more responsible.

Date: Mon Oct 27 20:20:00 PST 1997

Microsoft's behavior regarding Java is typical of the way they do business. They'll use any means to be first, and need to be stopped. The entire suite of products from the Microsoft compound are not only inferior but are detrimental to the entire computing industry and are costing corporate American untold billions.

Date: Mon Oct 27 21:22:34 PST 1997

Just a few words: Sun and the UNIX community have always fostered openness and community in the computing world. Disappointing, Microsoft seeks to monopolize and control the IT world to their own benefit and to the detriment of us all. More power to Java and cross-platform computing!

Date: Mon Oct 27 22:37:28 PST 1997

Sun was far too timid in expanding Java. They should have made it so every starting Java task finds a display device and puts up "Microsoft is a corporate bully" for four seconds. Other start-up actions could be: detect if running on Internet Explorer and if so display "Microsofties are loosers. Nyah nyah." -- Ralph Cringeley

Date: Tue Oct 28 00:42:18 PST 1997

Microsoft is pathetic. Java is even more pathetic. Sun is pathetic for hyping up such a pathetic language. This whole lawsuit business is just the legal departments way of keeping their jobs. Don't compete. Cooperate!

Date: Tue Oct 28 01:32:41 PST 1997

I hope the US government sees the points where you are right about Java. We have to stop M$ from destryoing all there is left of the real power computing. Make Java strong, give it to everyone, help everyone write in the language, support it as much as anything... If Java goes, the Net goes...

Date: Tue Oct 28 04:04:14 PST 1997

Why is everyone talking as if Java won't run on Windows? There are plenty of good Java VM's available for Windows. Just because Microsoft has decided not to supply a real one is not a problem for applications. The only real problem is lack of Java compliance in Internet Explorer. Hasn't anyone looked at the possibility of providing a third-party patch/extension/hack for IE4 which brings it into line, perhaps by swapping in a real VM instead of Microsoft's? Surely Sun could do this with little effort.

Date: Tue Oct 28 06:02:50 PST 1997

Question 7 should have additional option: Who cares? Windows is the standard platform. For better or worse, other platforms are just plain irrelevant. Get used to it. There is only one thing important to the future of Java: performance within Windows. Period.

Date: Tue Oct 28 07:26:50 PST 1997

You sue them...they sue you. Only the lawyers win! Microsoft has done great service by becoming the defacto OS standard. (I don't understand why UNIX doesn't own that spot.) Sun was a very small factor in my professional life until you invented Java. I want the improved language and the cross platform potential. But now I think the lawsuit will draw out 3 to 5 years and sap the momentum Java was gaining. I'm disapointed you couldn't work something out.

Date: Tue Oct 28 09:23:46 PST 1997

It's about time someone gave Mr. Gates and Company a taste of his own medicine. In the end I hope the big MS becomes just another software company!! Give Hell Scott!! John Strecker Flux Technologies Solutions, Inc.

Date: Tue Oct 28 12:16:23 PST 1997

Microsoft tries to destroy the idea of Java to keep their monopol. I hope, Sun wins - Sun has to win! Furthermore I would suggest to sue Microsoft in the way the jews sue Switzerland, meaning everybody who has a damage through Microsofts attack on Java joins the sue.

Date: Tue Oct 28 14:46:57 PST 1997

In my opinion, Browsers and Java are already a major platform. Nothing M$ can do is likely to change this, and the lawsuit isn't likely to either. There is too much momentum. The only thing that could stall all this is if Sun fails to deliver. The chief effect of the lawsuit is to make developing to M$'s "Java" platform a dubious business choice. Developers don't really want non-portable changes and extensions to begin with. When the non-portable changes and extensions are under a legal cloud, the case against them becomes even stronger. The result will be a closer adherence to standards.

Date: Tue Oct 28 15:11:57 PST 1997

The suit will definitely affect Java as a "platform independent" language. If Microsoft has his way, there will be several considerations being taken by developers as they move across platforms, and we will be right back were we started.

Date: Tue Oct 28 18:17:25 PST 1997

I believe it is impossible for Microsoft to claim, with one iota or credibility, that they are acting in Java's best interests. Their statements on the Java incompatibility issue show an aggressiveness that indicates they have little concen for the well being of Java as a common standard of the 117 licencees. Java WORA forces Microsoft to have to compete on a level playing field - this they don't want to have to do. They do not have any technology as elegant or as scalable as Java so Java is a target for them. I suspect though that Java was licensed to them as a 'poison pill' :-) Cheers Doug Marker

Date: Tue Oct 28 18:19:13 PST 1997

The internet crosses hardware software boundaries and shows what life is like when it doesn't matter Mac or PC, Unix or etc... Release the power of programmers to do what we do best Code! Don't force me to maintain detail knowlege of 15 different computer lauguages, there are more important things to expend our time and energy on. I'm a Mac user, and a PC/MF/Unix programmer.

Date: Wed Oct 29 00:53:35 PST 1997

I Don't Know Yaar !!! Leave Me Alone !!!

Date: Wed Oct 29 01:30:00 PST 1997

I hope M$ lose big time

Date: Wed Oct 29 06:59:57 PST 1997

If Sun loses either lawsuit with MS, Java is reduced to a flavor-of-the- month language. After the lawsuit is over - and Sun has won - then they should hand Java to ISO, free and clear.

Date: Wed Oct 29 09:59:03 PST 1997

Questions relating to the suit were difficult to answer- it depends on the OUTCOME and whether ms' influence can leverage the court. MS infringed the technology of java, tweaked it to use against the remaining mainframe and independent desktop OS's and gain 100% control. IE4 will kill Netscape and Sun in one blow if allowed to continue unrestricted by gov't regulators. It will force a mediocre windows standard on the entire world. Breakup the Wintel TRUST!

Date: Wed Oct 29 16:30:31 PST 1997

Sun have (again) missed the point. MS' Java extensions do make it easier to build solutions today, leveraging COM services (particularly Office apps etc), and this makes their solution attractive. Clearly the MS VM is defective as a full Java 1.1 implementation. The question is: what is more practical? For the moment, the jury is out. The anti-MS brigade are as childish and petty as usual, and I think their opinions should be discounted as negative, unproductive, and pointless. The key issue is whether we can get to have the best of both worlds. Sun have to demonstrate that their technologies are actually useful, not just attractive. In the end, I suspect that MS is the better at following market requirements. If they need to be compliant in order to own 90% of the Java markt, then they will be. And if they don't? Well, the small percentage of solutions dveloped away from Win32 will be just that - a small percentage, and no big deal. I'd like to see MS 'see the light'. But if they don't, I don't care, so long as I can deliver solutions. Its not as if the promise of universal execution is realistic. Take the top 10 operating systems by volume, some 6 to 8 or which are UNIX based (depends how you count). Now look to see what the consistency of Java patch level is across them, and look at the actual delivered consistency of behaviour of AWT code. Or even just thread scheduling. Its all a big lie. Sadly people, stupid people mostly, believe it. James

Date: Wed Oct 29 16:31:24 PST 1997

Sun have (again) missed the point. MS' Java extensions do make it easier to build solutions today, leveraging COM services (particularly Office apps etc), and this makes their solution attractive. Clearly the MS VM is defective as a full Java 1.1 implementation. The question is: what is more practical? For the moment, the jury is out. The anti-MS brigade are as childish and petty as usual, and I think their opinions should be discounted as negative, unproductive, and pointless. The key issue is whether we can get to have the best of both worlds. Sun have to demonstrate that their technologies are actually useful, not just attractive. In the end, I suspect that MS is the better at following market requirements. If they need to be compliant in order to own 90% of the Java markt, then they will be. And if they don't? Well, the small percentage of solutions dveloped away from Win32 will be just that - a small percentage, and no big deal. I'd like to see MS 'see the light'. But if they don't, I don't care, so long as I can deliver solutions. Its not as if the promise of universal execution is realistic. Take the top 10 operating systems by volume, some 6 to 8 or which are UNIX based (depends how you count). Now look to see what the consistency of Java patch level is across them, and look at the actual delivered consistency of behaviour of AWT code. Or even just thread scheduling. Its all a big lie. Sadly people, stupid people mostly, believe it. James

Date: Wed Oct 29 17:47:32 PST 1997

Windows Operating Systems are buggy and fragile, and becoming more and more difficult for users and corporations to manage. It is my greatest hope that Java will eventually become not only a leading business language, but an entire business application system.

Date: Thu Oct 30 14:45:06 PST 1997

I want to purchase java-centric applications, but they are usually only available for Windows and Solaris. Take Java Workshop as an example: Sun makes no effort to package it for systems like Linux -- so, in that respect, Java is no improvement over standard cross-platform toolsets. When will they learn?

Date: Sun Nov 2 23:29:00 PST 1997

It's a good thing that someone is trying to fight Bill Gates so the computer world isn't going to control by one person or one company.

Date: Mon Nov 3 06:35:48 PST 1997

Mr. Gates is afraid of the big competition from Java so far -- an operating system that can give a user the feel of windows without using any microsoft products. Well, you know what they say, you cannot be on top forever. I support Java and hope to be Java certified by late next year. Joan Wegrzyn

Date: Mon Nov 3 19:27:00 PST 1997

The IE 4.0 implementation of Java was a deliberately action to slow down the Java momentum. Although the DOJ and Congressional Hearings will take some of MS's attention & resources, they are still powerful enough to continue disrupting and delaying the Java movement. For Sun to win, they must amplify or reinforce the current negative public opinion on MS by ceding Java control to an ISO.

Date: Wed Nov 5 07:57:41 PST 1997

I find it interesting that many anti-Microsoft developers seem to have the luxury of being able to ignore the 100 million or so desktops on this planet running the Windows operating system. UNIX is going to become a niche OS before Windows NT becomes a niche OS. Wake up.

Date: Wed Nov 5 08:03:43 PST 1997

Both sides have very valid points, but I think that Microsoft will end up defining what will stand. Sun has virtually no influence outside the business / academic community. The internet, and most probably the Java language will be driven by the consumer. Microsoft have, and will continue to have the consumer market sewn up and what they decide to do with Java will have the most impact on the future of the language as a whole. I'm not a fan of Microsoft, just a realist.

Date: Wed Nov 5 10:42:41 PST 1997

End users did not and will not care about what programming language was used to develop their applications. If Sun does not come up with some kind of applets as good as MS office, it's days will be numbered. No one likes WABI.

Date: Wed Nov 5 12:21:10 PST 1997

Given Microsoft's previous behavior WRT predatory pricing practices (e.g. the Justice Dept. suit), it's flat-out incredible to me that there are many people who think the free-market is well served by such practices. Our society is not well-served by people who are incapable of learning from history. There oughta be a law to make these people take a history course in the predatory practices of the 19th-century robber barons, and pass the final exam.

Date: Wed Nov 5 17:38:15 PST 1997

The comments about Sun being an also-ran like Apple show incredible ignorance. Sun's position in the corporate world can't be touched by Microsoft, the company who once hosted "The UNIX Hater's Handbook" on one of it's developer websites (they've since removed it once IE went to UNIX). Sun had to at least try to keep the Windows platform in compliance with it's standards since that platform has the largest audience. I think Sun should work on a Java based OS with the low level interpretation available for all platforms if they want to keep Java viable and not let it become just another standard that Microsoft's dictated changes to as they have already with HTML.

Date: Thu Nov 6 04:38:00 PST 1997

I think Sun is right in the dispute with Microsoft. Bill Gates has said once that Microsoft is not a charity institution. Not only it isn´t, but is the OPPOSITE of a charity institution, or else, all the good feelings and intentions that are present in charity are far away from Microsoft and Bill Gates, who act all the time thinking only in their own interests, no matter what negative impacts those acts will have to people and society in general. Of course every company has to take care of its interests do survive, but Microsoft is exagerating, and need to be corrected as soon as possible to prevent everybody from being seriously damaged.

Date: Fri Nov 7 02:42:23 PST 1997

Question 7 is inherently contradictory - "as of now" and "will fulfil" are mutually exclusive concepts.I'd be interested to know what people think about the issue "as of now" and how long they think it will take to Java to realize its potential.

Date: Sat Nov 15 23:48:25 PST 1997

microsoft is a shit


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